FSD Beta 10.69

[Jeff N]

I do wish Tesla would incorporate anonymized location-based collective driving experience into its AI model.

.2 is smoother, but even today it tried to get into the left lane about 150 feet before a right turn - in traffic, and for no reason. There was no car to pass, traffic was just breezing along.

Clearly vision needs to be the primary decision maker as road conductions can change. But somewhere knowing that 100% of people are in the right lane before making a right turn needs to influence its decision making model. This wasn’t a complex situation with a special turning lane. Just a 4 lane road, upcoming right turn.

I did use the camera report.

Yes. In many situations, FSD corrects itself after making an initially wrong lane choice. It seems totally obvious that it should notice and remember the self-correction and send it back to the cloud. If the cloud gets multiple consistent reports it should automatically integrate the change into enhanced maps and send out an update report to cars in that region after some period of time.

The current visual perception should remain the dominant factor in real time but the updated enhanced mapping should be used to bias the initial perception, especially when the perception is unsure and not highly confident. This is, after all, how people actually drive as others have pointed out. In this limited way, FSD could then learn from its own driving experience even though the NN itself does not learn in the vehicle.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Actually what it shows is that more miles were driven.

We agree on what the graph shows. Please stop arguing that which we agree.

But the context of a graph reveals more information behind it. (Imagine a graph showing gender birthrate in China a while back which shows 55% boys and 45% girls. That graph shows only birthrate but in the context of what we know about China during a certain period, the graph ILLUSTRATES a whole lot more than it shows.)

So the miles on FSD graph illustrates a WHOLE lot more than it shows. If you understand the context of those miles.

To be able to correlate that to capability of the system you need to be able to understand the context as to who has been driving, where, and with how many accidents.

You could NEVER see that many miles in that short time on the first FSD beta on those different roads, with those different ability testers, (they wouldn’t be driving it much because it was so unpleasant). And if you did have them try that many miles there is NO WAY there wouldn’t be more accidents.

The fact is that the better and more capable it gets at handling various driving situations and roadways the more each tester uses it. And the more testers it is released to who aren’t hyper aware and hyper focused.

This rollout is VERY risky. One bad crash will be a media and Tesla-hater feeding frenzy. (For good or bad.) Geeze just look at they hey made over the bollard boop. It could set the program back years in regulatory hell.

Tesla understands this. Everything they are doing with the Beta rollout is tied to this concept. They only widen it or release a major change to the most careful and trusted testers.

Before they roll it out wider they need to be sure it is going to be capable of safely handling all the varied roads and traffic situations thrown at it by a less-and-less careful/trustworthy pool of testers.

The fact is IS being rolled out much wider and IS being used way more is illustrated by the graph which shows only the accelerating pace of miles driven.

Do we agree that the miles driven per FSD beta user per day has been close to constant?
I think you may be misreading the graph. It’s cumulative miles. So constant slope means constant miles per day. The inflection points are when Tesla released it to more users.
I don’t understand your conclusion about capability on varied roads. FSD beta is not geofenced and there is no evidence that the original group of beta testers was chosen to restrict usage to certain areas and situations.

 

[Mardak]

In an 8 mile stretch of surface streets and neighborhood that used to give me issues in 9 different locations, 7 of them are now corrected in .2, yet introduced 1 new issue in a traffic circle

What issues are you counting? Generally any undesired/unnecessary speed changes? I suppose the threshold for jarring / slightly nauseating will depend on each person.

I have noticed more often with 10.69.2 that it'll accelerate quickly when making a right turn onto a road maybe in response to what was cross traffic now behind you. Sometimes this is appropriate if I push the accelerator slightly to get it into the intersection. But at least once I pushed it because it was obvious the cross traffic was turning onto the road I was coming from, and FSD Beta just continued accelerating as if we needed to get out of the way.

 

[Silicon Desert]

Especially when NHTSA has weighed in and said that those devices should not be sold: NHTSA issues cease and desist for Tesla Autopilot Buddy

But most are now marketed as being for a different "fake" purpose from what they are really intended to do.

Good info. Never surprises me how some marketing folks like to get around regulations. What are they doing? ..... spraying it with lemon juice and calling it an air freshener?

 

[2101Guy]

Especially when NHTSA has weighed in and said that those devices should not be sold: NHTSA issues cease and desist for Tesla Autopilot Buddy

But most are now marketed as being for a different "fake" purpose from what they are really intended to do.

That was several years ago. Before FSD was “100 to 200 times safer than a human driver(c)Elon.

There are now HUNDREDS of listings on eBay for these now being sold legally.

Either way: it’s America. If you don’t like them? Simple: don’t buy one.

 

[Mardak]

Are you putting the car into FSD at your garage?

I've also encountered lane departure warnings when pulling out of the garage / driveway with 10.69 (and before), and that doesn't require Autopilot or FSD beta to be active. I believe it's actually the lane predictions being uncertain in these situations because there aren't actually lines painted, so even when the car isn't moving fast, the jumpiness of the "lanes" makes Autopilot safety system think you're suddenly drifting out of a lane.

 

[2101Guy]

Good info. Never surprises me how some marketing folks like to get around regulations. What are they doing? ..... spraying it with lemon juice and calling it an air freshener?

Here is the description from just one ad on eBay

• Release Hands: The steering wheel is equipped with a steering wheel booster, which can relieve shoulder pain and reduce the fatigue of long-distance driving. (Car owners should still pay attention to traffic safety when driving).

They essentially are bringing Tesla FSD up to speed with GM Supercruise(their highly rated driver assist system), which is hands off.

 

[Mardak]

It seems totally obvious that it should notice and remember the self-correction and send it back to the cloud

Are you pressing the video snapshot button? When FSD Beta makes an unnecessary lane change to "follow route," I try to wait until passing the immediate intersection as most of the time, the planning logic seems to be that it thought it needed to be in the other lane to continue through the intersection. So by sending the data back from the intersection, Tesla's autolabeling can create training data from the last 30 seconds that hopefully as you say "seems totally obvious" in hindsight.

With 10.69's "deep lane guidance" module, it seems like Tesla is explicitly focusing on this type of issue, so they might already have shadow mode triggers set up to send back this data anyway.

 

[HookBill]

Something that 69.2 still doesn't do well (or at all) is multiple rapid lane changes. I've had a couple cases in the last few days where I turned right, then had to get over 2 lanes to make a quick left. FSD completely fails in these cases. View attachment 852262View attachment 852263

Same here. Fails every time and these are not that uncommon.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

After further driving this morning, I have concluded that additionally 10.69.2 still has issues with these tasks:

1) Going
2) Stopping

They are quite severe. Very slow on the takeoff, and the slowing often (not every time!) has a pulsing nature to it where it applies regen, eases off for a bit, then uses regen and brakes. Just weird. The new display is great for seeing the severity of the issue.

 

[Ramphex]

Is this at a fork in the road by any chance.

I have had a long term issue, pre FSD even, on an exit ramp. My car would get in the service lane to exit. it should go straight as shown with GPS, but would take the wrong exit and turn right onto the wrong ramp. The service lane is very short and thinks after exiting the highway it also needs to make an immediate right when it should not.

With later versions of FSD I come to the critical point where it must commit and go straight. The car now blinks the left turn signal once or twice then proceeds straight. It doesn't turn left back into traffic, but it no longer screws up and turns right. I just chuckle and go with it. Assuming the computer is thinking out loud to make the proper maneuver. Prior to that update, I would personally hit the left turn signal to make it go straight. (same as overriding the car from jumping into right hand turn lanes. (I still have to do this near my office.)

Nope, a legit 4 way

 

[momo3605]

10.69.2 still has issues with these tasks:

1) Going
2) Stopping

This almost sounds like a joke, but you're absolutely correct haha

 

[Jeff N]

Are you pressing the video snapshot button? When FSD Beta makes an unnecessary lane change to "follow route," I try to wait until passing the immediate intersection as most of the time, the planning logic seems to be that it thought it needed to be in the other lane to continue through the intersection. So by sending the data back from the intersection, Tesla's autolabeling can create training data from the last 30 seconds that hopefully as you say "seems totally obvious" in hindsight.

With 10.69's "deep lane guidance" module, it seems like Tesla is explicitly focusing on this type of issue, so they might already have shadow mode triggers set up to send back this data anyway.

Yes, I tap the feedback button as well. Often, though, these are lane assignment issues that even a human driver has difficulty perceiving the first time until getting close up to the intersection.

 

[Silicon Desert]

What issues are you counting? Generally any undesired/unnecessary speed changes? I suppose the threshold for jarring / slightly nauseating will depend on each person.

I have noticed more often with 10.69.2 that it'll accelerate quickly when making a right turn onto a road maybe in response to what was cross traffic now behind you. Sometimes this is appropriate if I push the accelerator slightly to get it into the intersection. But at least once I pushed it because it was obvious the cross traffic was turning onto the road I was coming from, and FSD Beta just continued accelerating as if we needed to get out of the way.

Ok, I will summarize the situations. On .1, the issues I consistently had on several drives of the same 8-mile route.

3 unnecessary sudden slowdowns for about 2 seconds. Most folks call them phantom braking, but for me it was more of where the car let off of the accelerator and SLIGHTLY applied the brakes for side roads that join the main road where there were no cars or pedestrians, etc. .2 corrected those issues and never changes acceleration.

1 roundabout issue where it always gave the red hands of death to take over for no reason I could see. No longer happens in .2

1 roundabout issue where it always stopped before the roundabout for about 3 seconds even with no cars coming from the left. No longer happens in .2

1 issue on a very wide undivided road where it drove in the middle of the street only to move to the right when a car approaches from the other direction. Making the other car wonder if I was ever going to get out of the way. No longer happens in .2

2 instances of neighborhood left turns where the wheel jerked in a sudden fashion and then accelerated quickly into the left turn rather than accelerating after the turn. Make the wife think we were going to end up in a person's yard. Now corrected in .2

1 issue of where it always hesitated a LONG time and was a whimp turning into an unprotected left turn. Gone in .2

The one new issue is what I mentioned in another post where it wants to change into a merge lane on the right if it sees slow traffic in my lane.

I am not seeing the acceleration into either left or right turns that I used to see.

 

[Mardak]

the green arrow, after making the left turn on to Browns Bridge Rd it selects the correct lane and then turns on the right blinker and moves in to the lane that ends in 200 feet and then turns the left blinker on and has to get BACK in to the straight lane as that lane ended

If FSD Beta were using OpenStreetMap based lanes data, it would not be that surprising that it's confused here as the map data says lanes=4 maybe assuming 2 lanes in each direction; whereas the green arrow you've drawn goes through a road that has 4 lanes in your direction (dedicated left for St Charles Ave, straight through, merging left, dedicated right for parking lot) and 5 lanes in the opposite direction (double left, double straight, right turn) for a total of up to 9 lanes. There's a bunch of forks and merges very close to each other, so that's probably also part of the difficulty for the vision system even when knowing it shouldn't trust its map data.

I would guess it switches right after making the left turn because you have an upcoming right turn pretty soon, but as where you've placed the green star, the 2 lanes actually merge into 1, so the lane change is unnecessary. For this specific getting into a merging lane issue, I'm not sure how Tesla will prioritize it if they believe FSD Beta can handle merges without much issue.

 

[Silicon Desert]

Oh and one other thing. It's a bit humorous to me that one of the places .2 still goes nuts and still wants to avoid a left turn for my car is on "Electric Drive" that is the long PUBLIC street that turns into the gigafactory campus And by the way, those cones are no longer there, yet it still doesn't want to "Go Home"

 

[Jeff N]

Oh and one other thing. It's a bit humorous to me that one of the places .2 still goes nuts and still wants to avoid a left turn for my car is on "Electric Drive" that is the long PUBLIC street to turns into the gigafactory campus And by the way, those cones are no longer there, yet it still doesn't want to "Go Home"

It’s afraid of being spanked at home for bad behavior on the road. Is this evidence of General AI emerging?

 

[momo3605]

One area where FSD continues to have trouble with, and I don't understand why is a wide single lane. In the following attachment, this right lane is wide enough for 2 cars as the right side of it becomes a turn lane at the end. But if FSD had logic to always stay with the left line, this wouldn't be an issue anywhere. It ends up driving like a drunk fool here (red line). I thought some of the efforts towards handling unmarked roads might have improved this in 10.69, but alas it's no better than before.

 

[Dan D.]

Good info. Never surprises me how some marketing folks like to get around regulations. What are they doing? ..... spraying it with lemon juice and calling it an air freshener?

Here's the disclaimer from the Autopilot Buddy, still on sale, which it calls a "Tesla Nag Reduction Device". Note that it can't be bought in the USA.

The Autopilot Buddy unit restores extended use of Autosteer on Tesla® vehicles to earlier Firmware 7 capabilities. This is not intended to be a hands-off device; your hands must remain on the wheel as directed by Tesla's terms of "Autosteer" user agreement.
** Do Not Use the AutopilotBuddy on public streets.
Manufactured for Track use only. We can only ship this product to customers outside the USA.


Now for USA customers you can only buy the Cell Phone Holder device. Ah, it's a cell phone holder not a weight, but still attached to the steering wheel in the same place, and presumably about the same weight as the Autopilot Buddy? But it's not at all the same, wink wink.
One or more states may restrict cellphones mounted to the steering wheel. Check your local laws before use. The #1776 is made for"stationary use only".
Do not use the #1776 cell phone holder while the car is in motion.


All just games. What you do with these devices is up to you, wink wink. Hey, if someone can sell Not-a-Flamethrower you apparently can sell anything, so long as you have a stupid disclaimer like Do not use... while the car is in motion.
What I don't understand is why they are selling it for $329, that has to be a joke.

 

[TS.42]

One area where FSD continues to have trouble with, and I don't understand why is a wide single lane. In the following attachment, this right lane is wide enough for 2 cars as the right side of it becomes a turn lane at the end. But if FSD had logic to always stay with the left line, this wouldn't be an issue anywhere. It ends up driving like a drunk fool here (red line). I thought some of the efforts towards handling unmarked roads might have improved this in 10.69, but alas it's no better than before.

This is one of those basics that I dont get why they have not fixed all this time. Another thing I noticed in a full commuting test run this morning, the car has lost its damned mind when it comes to selecting the correct lanes. This is something that it was better at, 3 months ago than it is now. The lane selections have been nearly dangerous in my test runs because the car suddenly veers the wrong direction AWAY from the actual turn itself.