Elon and Ukraine

[qdeathstar]

What does it really cost SpaceX to give users in Ukraine free service on Starlink? It's probably just bandwidth that would go unused otherwise. Sounds to me like Musk is just being an a-hole. Of course, as a private company and a private person, they're under no obligation to give anybody free service. But considering that Starlink probably has plenty of available bandwidth, and that Ukraine is fighting for its very life and the literal lives of its people against a genocidal mass-murderer, my opinion of Musk has gone from admiration to contempt.

Starlink operates downlink stations that tie into other broad band providers so I assume they have to pay for that bandwidth, they have to pay for the buildings their systems operate in, they have to pay to utilities at those buildings, they have go pay the employees that work there, and they have to pay to provide support. Would they have to pay for some of that anyway? Of course, but I’m sure some of the cost of providing service to Ukraine is marginal.


But, what really gets me is I don’t see Raytheon or Boeing or any of our defense contractors giving Ukraine anything for free. No one is calling them A-holes for charging for their weapons system…. No one is calling them A-holes for getting paid just to development them.

Elon should learn by their example. No free lunches ever. Then, you’d admire him.

 

[markc2]

I think I might be a bit angry with Elon after this.

Musk drew widespread criticism from Ukrainians over his peace plan in which he proposed that Ukraine permanently cede the Crimea region to Russia, that new referendums be held under U.N. auspices to determine the fate of Russian-controlled territory, and that Ukraine agree to neutrality.

Ukraine says it will never agree to cede land taken by force, and lawful referendums cannot be held in occupied territory where many people have been killed or driven out.

 

[InDaClub]

Elon is our black swan event. Twitter has nothing to do with making EVs.

You want to give starlink to Ukraine, fine, but then don't go on Twitter giving your opinions on the war. It's neutral zone for you buddy.

I think shirts need to be made that say: STFU Elon.

I'm really beginning to be annoyed with his personality. I held him up in my mind for long, but his ego is getting the best of him.

Get yourself one of these t-shirts while you’re at it…

Spoiler

 

[kabin]

Good luck with that. The US has by far the most advanced laser system, one actually being tested out on Arleigh-Burke class destroyers with the end goal of being part of missile defense, and it won't hit and take out satellites.

First there are atmospheric effects of firing a laser through the full thickness of the atmosphere which will cause degradation of the beam, and refraction. Second, the beam has to remain incredibly focused. Third, and probably the hardest, is realtime tracking of an object 300 miles away moving at 17,500+ MPH. Fourth, many surfaces of satellites are VERY reflective (they are made this way to keep temperatures in check - there is no "cooling effect" from wind outside of the atmosphere - this is why satellites are not black), meaning any beam that actually hits must be SUSTAINED and VERY intense.

Then there is the power required for something like this - we're talking megawatt level, sustained, power to do something like that.

The only "anti-satellite" lasers I have heard of are not designed to take down a satellite, but simply blind optical sensors (i.e. photographs):

China said to be developing anti-satellite lasers to blind U.S. reconnaissance and targeting satellites

China increasingly challenges U.S. in several arenas, especially economically, militarily, and technologically in effort to change global norms.

www.militaryaerospace.com

No, despite what sci-fi television is telling you, we are not at that level of technology.

No doubt it isn't easy but also not insurmountable. Record laser power is upwards of 2000 trillion watts. It's not just the power but the duration of the pulse. Lasers are focused for a given distance with an optical lens. Pulsed power lasers reduce atmospheric thermal blooming. And the simple act of targeting a moving object reduces thermal blooming. And it's not as if starlink satellites are moving erratically through orbit. In fact anyone that wants to know can track any one of the satellites and predict where it will be at a given time. Soft kill attempt unsuccessful, no worries as the target will be back over an over again.

 

[EverettRuess]

Elon is our black swan event. Twitter has nothing to do with making EVs.

You want to give starlink to Ukraine, fine, but then don't go on Twitter giving your opinions on the war. It's neutral zone for you buddy.

I think shirts need to be made that say: STFU Elon.

I'm really beginning to be annoyed with his personality. I held him up in my mind for long, but his ego is getting the best of him.

Can't see a way to recommend or love this post or I would. Yes I want to make money but mostly what I care about is the mission. Twitter and Ukraine have nothing to do with the mission. All this defense of Elon's actions is the real FUD.

 

[betstarship]

Y'know, I remember there being posts in early 2020 (can't find them anymore) that said people were fine if TSLA was at $3000 (pre-splits) at the end of year 2022...they'd be really happy with that outcome. Most would be ecstatic if that was the end price now is where its at if most thought that in the end of 2019.

I wouldn't have expected Musk to get involved in Twitter nor the Ukraine War with the advent of Starlink back then in any kind of scenario.

 

[Unpilot]

Can't see a way to recommend or love this post or I would. Yes I want to make money but mostly what I care about is the mission. Twitter and Ukraine have nothing to do with the mission. All this defense of Elon's actions is the real FUD.

Actions speak louder than tweets.

Starlink has and continues to play a huge role in Ukrainian defense.

No sane person wants nuclear war.

While I don't agree with all his tweets. The facts on the ground are he has provided a way for a small nation that was invaded by its dictator neighbor to communicate in a way the was simply not possible before. And therefore survive.

 

[Nocturnal]

I'll give you that this twitter deal has been annoying AF. However the Ukraine stuff is fine. People have tunnel vision and can lose sight of the bigger picture and I'm glad we have a figure like Elon looking out for the best interest of Earth at all time.

Since his antics, we see Putin being more dovish, possible negotiation set up in Turkey, and reminding Ukraine that support is finite and this is not some gladiator fight to the death with massive loss for earth.

Putin says mobilization to end in two weeks; Musk says SpaceX will stop funding Starlink in Ukraine

Ukrainian forces continue to gain ground in territory occupied and annexed by Russia, with Kyiv saying it has liberated some 600 settlements this month.

www.cnbc.com

And Musk and Tesla will NEVER get any credit. He and SpaceX are seen more negatively now than if they had never offered to help Ukraine.

He is the best manager/founder of all time no doubt and this is why he has nearly all of my money, but he is terrible at politics.

 

[bkp_duke]

No doubt it isn't easy but also not insurmountable. Record laser power is upwards of 2000 trillion watts. It's not just the power but the duration of the pulse. Lasers are focused for a given distance with an optical lens. Pulsed power lasers reduce atmospheric thermal blooming. And the simple act of targeting a moving object reduces thermal blooming. And it's not as if starlink satellites are moving erratically through orbit. In fact anyone that wants to know can track any one of the satellites and predict where it will be at a given time. Soft kill attempt unsuccessful, no worries as the target will be back over an over again.

Again, you have a cursory understanding of things but not actually deep enough knowledge to really understand what it takes.

That "2000 Trillion Watt" laser was for one trillionth of a second:

World-largest petawatt laser completed, delivering 2,000 trillion watts output

The Institute of Laser Engineering (ILE), Osaka University, has succeeded to reinforce the Petawatt laser "LFEX" to deliver up to 2,000 trillion watts in the duration of one trillionth of one second (this corresponds to 1000 times the integrated electric power consumed in the world). By using...

phys.org

Second, did you SEE THE SIZE of that? Good luck, even with mirrors and prisms, aiming that thing at a target 300 miles above you moving at 17,500+ MPH.

You keep quoting the text equivalent of "sound bytes", but don't really have much of a deep understanding.

Please, provide us an example of a laser of necessary wattage AND duration HITTING an orbiting target the size of a small satellite.

The war in Ukraine will be over LONG before anything like this could even remotely be brought to bear on Starlink.

 

[daniel]

Starlink operates downlink stations that tie into other broad band providers so I assume they have to pay for that bandwidth, they have to pay for the buildings their systems operate in, they have to pay to utilities at those buildings, they have go pay the employees that work there, and they have to pay to provide support. Would they have to pay for some of that anyway? Of course, but I’m sure some of the cost of providing service to Ukraine is marginal.


But, what really gets me is I don’t see Raytheon or Boeing or any of our defense contractors giving Ukraine anything for free. No one is calling them A-holes for charging for their weapons system…. No one is calling them A-holes for getting paid just to development them.

Elon should learn by their example. No free lunches ever. Then, you’d admire him.

Raytheon and Boeing aren't run and mostly-owned by the world's richest billionaire. Their executives have a legal fiduciary duty to maximize profits for shareholders, which is a normal and anti-social aspect of a free-market economy. I regard those companies, along with Big Business in general as greedy parasites.

As CEO and majority shareholder, Elon Musk is answerable to nobody, as he demonstrated when, without consulting shareholders, he squandered a billion (?) dollars on bitcoin. He could easily afford to support the people of Ukraine in their struggle against the worst despot and genocidal mass-murderer since WWII.

I admired him for being forward-looking and for building the company that forced the entire auto industry to accept the electric future of transportation. This action of turning his back on Ukraine puts him, in my estimation, right smack dab alongside all the other greedy CEOs and billionaires.

As I said, he had and has no obligation to provide free communications services to the people of Ukraine. Doing so was consistent with my previous estimation of him as a person who tried to do the right thing, unlike nearly all other billionaires. Turning his back on them now gives credence to the theory (which I desperately hope is wrong) that he's suddenly gotten palsy with the genocidal mass-murderer Putin.

He's earned my contempt. Contempt which I also bestow on the people who run Raytheon and Boeing and the rest of them.

 

[Krugerrand]

Elon is our black swan event. Twitter has nothing to do with making EVs.

You want to give starlink to Ukraine, fine, but then don't go on Twitter giving your opinions on the war. It's neutral zone for you buddy.

I think shirts need to be made that say: STFU Elon.

I'm really beginning to be annoyed with his personality. I held him up in my mind for long, but his ego is getting the best of him.

Seems to me it’s your own ego that’s gotten in the way. I’d explain it to you, but you’re too angry to hear.

 

[nativewolf]

I'll give you that this twitter deal has been annoying AF. However the Ukraine stuff is fine. People have tunnel vision and can lose sight of the bigger picture and I'm glad we have a figure like Elon looking out for the best interest of Earth at all time.

Since his antics, we see Putin being more dovish, possible negotiation set up in Turkey, and reminding Ukraine that support is finite and this is not some gladiator fight to the death with massive loss for earth.

Putin says mobilization to end in two weeks; Musk says SpaceX will stop funding Starlink in Ukraine

Ukrainian forces continue to gain ground in territory occupied and annexed by Russia, with Kyiv saying it has liberated some 600 settlements this month.

www.cnbc.com

Putin being dovish? They just committed a week of unmitigated war crimes firing cruise missiles at all the civilian electrical generation facilities they could find to cause misery and loss of civilian life this winter. Dovish? there is simply no way to dislike that post to the degree to which it deserved to be disliked. Putin has done the exact opposite since EM opined. He's ramped up terror and escalated a conflict far beyond the areas being disputed.

There was nothing, nothing good about EM post. For Ukraine this is indeed about a gladiator fight to the death, that's exactly what this is. If you don't understand that you have never been to Ukraine. Or Finland or Poland or Estonia. You want to know why Poland has taken in millions, given Ukraine everything they can give? Poles know.

Before you say the missiles were in response to the bridge you should know, if you paid any attention, that the missiles were moved closer to Ukraine last month, lots of videos were posted at the time. Then the TU fleet was moved to an airbase at Kursk (from siberia).

 

[Krugerrand]

And Musk and Tesla will NEVER get any credit. He and SpaceX are seen more negatively now than if they had never offered to help Ukraine.

He is the best manager/founder of all time no doubt and this is why he has nearly all of my money, but he is terrible at politics.

Right. Because politics is all about lying and manipulation and never giving a yes or no answer but rather dancing around a bush.

And people here think it’s a bad thing he sucks at politics.

 

[SO16]

He and SpaceX are seen more negatively now than if they had never offered to help Ukraine.

Any numbers to back this up?

Haven’t we figured out by now that the news more often than not, Dunks on Elon and that the loud minority is just that, the minority?

 

[kabin]

Again, you have a cursory understanding of things but not actually deep enough knowledge to really understand what it takes.

I'm not interested in getting into a pissing match with you. There's an old saying to never get into a discussion with anyone who spends most of their time on an enthusiast forum. That speaks for itself.

 

[bkp_duke]

I'm not interested in getting into a pissing match with you. There's an old saying to never get into a discussion with anyone who spends most of their time on an enthusiast forum. That speaks for itself.

No, you aren't interested because you can't back up what you say with actual data. So you take the cheap way out and throw veiled insults.

 

[Knightshade]

And Musk and Tesla will NEVER get any credit. He and SpaceX are seen more negatively now than if they had never offered to help Ukraine.

FWIW, the ukraine stuff is the only topic I've gotten anti-elon texts from friends (multiple) about in all the years I've driven and invested in Tesla-- so at least among the cohort of "friends of mine who never previously had anything bad to say about Elon" this does seem accurate.

My reply has basically been 2 prong- one to point out the accurate economics based reasons SpaceX is doing what it's doing, and that they quietly asked the pentagon over a month ago to help with it.... and to also point out Elon then tweeting the "f off- ok we will" stuff destroyed his own ability to actually point out the facts of the first bit and make him look like a reactionary manbaby- especially coming right on the heels of his Neville Chamberlin routine with Putin.


He had a solid first principles argument based on math and economics to explain why they're doing what they're doing regarding Starlink and could have stuck to just presenting those facts- he just chose to go another direction.

 

[Nocturnal]

FWIW, the ukraine stuff is the only topic I've gotten anti-elon texts from friends (multiple) about in all the years I've driven and invested in Tesla-- so at least among the cohort of "friends of mine who never previously had anything bad to say about Elon" this does seem accurate.

My reply has basically been 2 prong- one to point out the accurate economics based reasons SpaceX is doing what it's doing, and that they quietly asked the pentagon over a month ago to help with it.... and to also point out Elon then tweeting the "f off- ok we will" stuff destroyed his own ability to actually point out the facts of the first bit and make him look like a reactionary manbaby- especially coming right on the heels of his Neville Chamberlin routine with Putin.


He had a solid first principles argument based on math and economics to explain why they're doing what they're doing regarding Starlink and could have stuck to just presenting those facts- he just chose to go another direction.

That's more or less my stance. What they have done to help Ukraine has been simply amazing. Even after his peace proposal he could have salvaged things if he had focused on that. When engaged with the guy who told him to **** off it just played right into the hands of the people who claim that Elon is a Russian supporter. Thank God we have some important Ukranian figures who are still pointing out how important Starlink has been to the war effort.

It's a case where I completely understand Elon's position, but where he communicated the wrong way. As smart as he is I wish he would realize he is weak in this area and err on the side of caution.
Millions will see these articles, thousands will see this tweet.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1580275214272802817

 

[Singuy]

That's more or less my stance. What they have done to help Ukraine has been simply amazing. Even after his peace proposal he could have salvaged things if he had focused on that. When engaged with the guy who told him to **** off it just played right into the hands of the people who claim that Elon is a Russian supporter. Thank God we have some important Ukranian figures who are still pointing out how important Starlink has been to the war effort.

It's a case where I completely understand Elon's position, but where he communicated the wrong way. As smart as he is I wish he would realize he is weak in this area and err on the side of caution.
Millions will see these articles, thousands will see this tweet.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1580275214272802817

View attachment 864142

What is it that Elon is doing that cause just unreasonable response? It's absolutely unreasonable for that ambassador to tell Elon to F off for what he tweeted. Just like how the cave guy told Elon to shove that sub where the sun don't shine. These are completely unacceptable things to say in public and it makes zero sense to me.

 

[Knightshade]

What is it that Elon is doing that cause just unreasonable response? It's absolutely unreasonable for that ambassador to tell Elon to F off for what he tweeted.

Sure what the ambassador said was unreasonable.

Elons reply right when news was breaking about possible shutdown of starlink in Ukraine was even more unreasonable because it reinforced the narrative that SL possibly shutting down was a tantrum instead of based in economics.

The facts show Starlink was raising funding concerns to governments weeks before ANY of the above happened-- but that's not the message anybody is getting thanks to Elons responses.

Instead the message the masses are getting is "Elon got insulted so he's taking his ball and going home"

Perception is reality for most.

Just like how the cave guy told Elon to shove that sub where the sun don't shine. These are completely unacceptable things to say in public and it makes zero sense to me.

Did you find Elon calling that guy (inaccurately) a pedophile acceptable?

"He said something mean first" is not an excuse adults should be using.