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In the linked presentation, the continuous power ratings are cited for the TGV motors (see slide 3 for example). Train engines also don't have to be optimized for power/weight as much as automotive (or aircraft!) engines. Sometimes ballast must be added to the the engines to get adequate traction.

Tesla's motor is highly optimized for power/weight, and only the peak power rating has been released (at least I've never seen a continuous rating).

These ratings make sense, since the TGV will run at high power continuously for hours, but automobiles can't run at max (or high) power for more even 1 minute (unless they are at TG's test track, or the autobahn).

As a general rule of thumb, the continuous power rating for an electric motor is about 1/2 the peak rating. This ratio will vary for different designs, depending on how effectively the motor can be cooled.

GSP
 
In the linked presentation, the continuous power ratings are cited for the TGV motors (see slide 3 for example). Train engines also don't have to be optimized for power/weight as much as automotive (or aircraft!) engines. Sometimes ballast must be added to the the engines to get adequate traction.

Yes, I think the continuous/peak values explain the difference, however I'd contend that although in many rail applications weight isn't critical (e.g. heavy freight), this isn't one of them. Unsprung mass on a high speed train is even more of a problem than in a car - it will wreck the track.

I've seen that there is an EU directive that states maximum axle load for 300km/h trains is 17 tonnes. The AGV designers seem to be aiming for 16 tonnes (because of the 360km/h top speed) - pretty challenging with only 2 axles per coach.

From here:

AGV's traction system will include several innovations. It will be powered by 770kW permanent magnet self-ventilated motors. Each motor will weigh 740kg. "This gives 1kW per kilo, which is something we have not achieved before," Mr Eric Marie, Alstom's vice-president, main lines, told IRJ. The low weight of the traction motor means that it can be mounted within the bogie without affecting the dynamic behaviour of the train.

Also, when Alstom used these motors to set a world speed record, they ran them at 1MW:

A major worry for the V150 test team had been the prospect of a failure in a mechanical or electrical component as a result of overheating. The AGV traction motors had been designed for an output of 720 kW, but during the V150 trials each motor was producing 1 000 kW. No less than 40 runs were made at speeds above 450 km/h, and six of these exceeded 550 km/h - yet temperatures remained within the permitted tolerances. Lacôte concedes that 'perhaps we were too cautious and maybe some equipment was over-dimensioned, but I prefer surprises like that rather than the other way round'.

Also, they need to get the weight down further because apparently they have a customer interested in a double-deck version. That will take some structural engineering.

So I'm starting to think that is a fair number for continuous output at these powers. If they could go much further, I'm sure Alstom would have. But I will keep digging :smile:.
 
OK, power/weight is important for these motors. I was thinking the separate locomotive engine needs weight to get enough traction to pull the entire train. Like this hybrid yard locomotive that had to add ballast since the 50,000 lbs of batteries were not heavy enough!

http://www.railpower.com/dl/GGSeries.pdf

However, with distributed traction there is no separate "engine," and reducing motor weight provides more payload in the cars (since the individual cars each have motors). Since this weight is unstrung, it is even more important to minimize it.

Besides the peak vs. continuous ratings, another reason for the lower kW/kg spec is likely the durability requirements for locomotive use. Automobiles will be scrapped after 100,000-300,000 miles of use, with an easy duty cycle that uses high power every once in a while (sometimes never), and only for short periods. Locomotives likely are expected to run 1,000,000 miles or more (typical requirement for a line haul truck), and have a much more severe duty cycle, running at high power for several hours, every day. This requires heaver construction.

This durability/duty cycle difference is why a 400 hp diesel engine for an 80,000 lb. truck is much bigger and heaver than a 400 hp diesel engine for a 10,000 lb. pickup truck. Same goes for their transmissions and rear axles.

I think this helps explain why the TGV/AGV kW/kg is much lower than Tesla's, even thought they are trying just as hard and are at least equally competent motor designers.

I'm sorry if this is off-topic. Maybe we could rename this thread "planes, trains, and automobiles..." :)

GSP
 
No I don't think it is off topic - in the absence of any electric planes to look at, this is probably the best source of information on motors with similar requirements to the duty cycles and weight that such planes would need.

So what does this mean for the earlier discussion? Well, it appears that for our 2x 1000hp motors, around 1.5 of those available 7 tonnes would need to be for the motors and not batteries and that the motors themselves are heavier than the existing gas turbines.
 
Sunseeker II solar-electric sailplane

Solar Plane Set to Soar Over Europe | Autopia from Wired.com

"After a quiet takeoff and climb to a few thousand feet, you level off and throttle back," he said. "Then, with the sun at your back, you glance at the volt meter and see that it's ticking up instead of down. That's when it really dawns on you that it is a new game you're playing with this airplane. It changes everything."


GSP
 
Best Video You'll See Today: Solar Plane Crossing the Alps : TreeHugger

Breathtaking! First Crossing of the Alps by a Solar Plane : TreeHugger

Sunseeker II Solar Airplane to Fly Over Europe this Spring : TreeHugger

sunseeker2-solar-airplane-01.jpg

solar-plane-alps-001.jpg
 
The Incredible Website :: The Incredible Solar Electric Flight

The Incredible Solar Electric Flight

12 Solar Panels, 4 Paramotors, 8 Pilots, 2 Continents
2000km Solar-Powered Flight

In July 2009 a team of intrepid pilots will set out on an exciting new adventure. Using a newly developed electric paramotor, the 2000km expedition from Monaco to Morocco will demonstrate the latest technology in batteries, solar panels and paramotors...
 
100% Electric Airplane Sets New World Speed Record

Equipped with a liquid-cooled Valentino synchronous motor by Sicme Motori, the plane has been in development since September of 2007. But according to the SkySpark website this is only an intermediate goal for the plane.

It’s expected that the craft is capable of 186 mph (300 km/h). And while these speeds are barely significant when compared to some conventional planes, the potential is noteworthy nonetheless.

The SkySpark team hopes to keep improving the plane’s performance. Using a “hydrogen fuel cells powered engine,” they plan to increase the planes range…and of course its speed.

There's a pretty cool video as well showing the plane in action.
 
Very promising! The fuel cell stack looks to be the "passenger" in the aircraft. I wonder where and how the hydrogen is stored...the wings are traditional for avgas, but I'm not sure how they would function for hydrogen. The speed record is a bit of a publicity thing only, as speed can be as much a function of wind and altitude as it is engine power -- "power for altitude, pitch for speed."
 
Seems to me that the new Lithium-Air batteries discussed here are a real enabler for electric flight.

A regional passenger plane with 2MW of motors would require 6667kg of batteries for the sustained power. That would be a 1GWh hour pack - enough for a flight time 500 hours at full throttle.