Im about to get 2 Powerwalls and wondering about the need for a UPS for my computer. I have read in this thread that it might be necessary and if it is what is the recommendation on which one to purchase.
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Do I need a UPS
- Thread starter Merrill
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jrweiss98020
Tessa's Tesla
I recommend a UPS because it responds much faster than the Powerwalls to voltage fluctuations.
I use the Cyberpower CP1500PFCLCD for its true sine wave feature (recommended for many newer computer power supplies that use Active Power Factor Correction).
I use the Cyberpower CP1500PFCLCD for its true sine wave feature (recommended for many newer computer power supplies that use Active Power Factor Correction).
I have UPS units on all my desktop computers and network gear. I have CyberPower True Sin Wave units. But the thing that can cause issues for a UPS is the frequency needed to cut off the inverter power when the Powerwalls are full AND the grid is down. If you need to go to higher than 62 Hz or so, some UPS units will fail. The Eaton units seem to tolerate the higher frequencies the best. You will want to find out what this frequency is for your inverters before deciding on which UPS to purchase. This thread goes into the details and recommended UPS units for high frequency shutoff inverters.
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60Hz is the output frequency of the inverters. The frequency I was referring to is the cut off frequency the Powerwalls raise to and the inverter must match when there is no place for the electricity to go. This is in the case where the powerwalls are full and the grid is down.
At least this is how I think this all works. See the 1st entry in the post I referenced earlier for more info on this cut off frequency.
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I doubt your inverters shut off at 60hz.. they probably shut off at 60.5 or higher. That doesnt matter on the issue that @jboy210 mentioned though. You might want to read the thread that he linked to, if you want to get an in depth understanding of the issue he is talking about.
The TL ; DR version (too long, didnt read) is that out of the box, powerwalls will raise the frequency to 65 hz when : No grid + battery full. This can cause issues with many pieces of equipment, including UPS, microwaves, lights, etc etc. You can request tesla lower the frequency based on that, but the lowest they currently seem to want to lower it to is 62 hz.
For "why" you would need to ask them that, we dont know.
Much more detail in the thread he linked to.
I have an embarrassing number of UPSs but combined with the Powerwall and my world isn't interrupted at all by power blips or outages. I have anecdotally experienced the Powerwall taking up to a couple of seconds to switch over so for smooth transitions of sensitive electronics UPSs are a must.
1) 1500VA CyberPower in the office for my PC
2) 1000VA CyberPower in the networking closet for the home server, router, and FIOS
3) 1000VA CyberPower in the living room for the TV and Xbox
4) 600VA CyberPower in the downstairs closet for the PoE IP cameras and NVR
5) (if you count it) the FIOS ONT is backed up by its own battery backup unit
1) 1500VA CyberPower in the office for my PC
2) 1000VA CyberPower in the networking closet for the home server, router, and FIOS
3) 1000VA CyberPower in the living room for the TV and Xbox
4) 600VA CyberPower in the downstairs closet for the PoE IP cameras and NVR
5) (if you count it) the FIOS ONT is backed up by its own battery backup unit
That works for the UPS but not all the other devices that might have a problem with 65hz (like some microwaves, lights, etc etc). I bought an eaton exactly for the reason you mention, but then decided I wanted tesla to lower my frequency and got them to do that, so now I dont have that issue.
Better to buy the UPS you want and get the frequency lowered than buy a specific UPS to work around an issue that is now known by tesla (my opinion, anyway).
Was coming here to say this. Better to treat the problem rather than the symptom, especially if your inverters support lower frequency cutoffs. The CyberPower UPSs work perfectly fine.
chrisbailey13
Member
I have 6 UPC's throughout my house on computer/network & security equipment. When we would have outages, my UPCs would run even though the rest of the house would e running on powerwalls. I called TESLA, gave them the model numbers of the UPC's and they adjusted the frequency the PW's so the UPC's would respond appropriately to the PW frequency.
To you question...do you need UPC's.....I recommend it.
To you question...do you need UPC's.....I recommend it.
aesculus
Still Trying to Figure This All Out
I guess it depends on how sensitive your computers are to momentary power outages. My Mac mini rides through the cut over. Of course my laptops (which we primarily use) don't care because they have batteries. My NAS on the other hand dies immediately and must be backed up with a UPS. The networking equipment may hiccup but it's not noticeable and they reset immediately.
I have a Cyberpower UPS that is way overkill for the momentary support but I got a good deal on it so I bought it. It also backs up my printer which also takes a long time to restart but it's not a show stopper.
But YOU MUST have Tesla lower your frequency from the default of 65 Hz. The minimum should be 62 Hz IMHO if your inverters trip at or below that and it would be better if it was 61 Hz for me as some Insteon devices I use don't like 62 Hz. My Fronius inverters trip at 60.5 Hz. But alas Tesla won't go lower than 62 Hz at the moment and you may have to fight to get that.
I have a Cyberpower UPS that is way overkill for the momentary support but I got a good deal on it so I bought it. It also backs up my printer which also takes a long time to restart but it's not a show stopper.
But YOU MUST have Tesla lower your frequency from the default of 65 Hz. The minimum should be 62 Hz IMHO if your inverters trip at or below that and it would be better if it was 61 Hz for me as some Insteon devices I use don't like 62 Hz. My Fronius inverters trip at 60.5 Hz. But alas Tesla won't go lower than 62 Hz at the moment and you may have to fight to get that.
I also have Cyber Power UPSes. What frequency is your PW set to raise to cut off the inverters? I believe my Delta M series inverters will cut off as early as 60.5 Hz.
I know I am not @gpez but If I remember correctly, in his particular setup his inverters support the "ramping" feature that gradually raises the frequency so the shutoff is more gradual, rather than "on / off". Of course, he will correct me if I am mis remembering this
The issue that you (and it seems pretty much anyone who is trying to do this "now" vs when the trail blazers like @gpez @bmah @power.saver and others who I am not leaving out on purpose by any means) have, is now that tesla is aware of this issue, thats a good thing, but there now seems to be a "floor" which they do not want to go lower than, regardless of equipment.
That floor seems to be 62 hz. Some of the early trailblazers report having a lower cutoff frequency than that, because their inverters support it and tesla allowed it, but recent (as in this year) requests to tesla to lower the frequency has resulted in no lower than 62hz even if equipment shuts off at 60.5.
I am thinking there must be some fear of liability here on tesla's part or something. Since this seems to have transitioned from "engineering" looking at each case, to "level 2" handling this, that appears to be where we are now. I have all tesla equipment, and my inverter shuts off at 60.5 and does not support the ramping feature, yet they set mine to 62 hz. If I was in the situation of @aesculus , I think what I would do would be to use my kill a watt, or similar, simulate the outage situation, and try to take video of the fact that some of my devices still had an issue (his insteon dimmers etc).
I would then request to have this escalated through tesla as an exception to lower the frequency to 61.5 with video evidence that 62hz still causes me an issue, and a request to escalate it to a group that might be able to approve that. I am betting that, eventually, he could get them to do 61.5 if his equipment turns off at 60.5 with verified documentation and that approach, but might be a battle, and if you cant capture video evidence there is still a problem, then much less likely.
Anyway, TL ; DR version is, it appears that most of the tesla energy folks are aware of this thanks to the work of the trailblazers, but it also appears that somewhere inside tesla there is now some sort of "KM" (knowledge base management) entry for level 2 techs that says "review X and reduce, no lower than 62hz".
Most of you that work in IT are aware of how the escalation process goes for stuff like this if you have worked in a company that uses a ticketing system and a knowledge base, and thats what I am basing my guess on, not on first hand knowledge of tesla's inner workings. just observing how they seem to be responding to this now.
jrweiss98020
Tessa's Tesla
I would interpret "accepted frequency range" to mean the UPS will take over if the frequency gets too high or low. That is EXACTLY what you WANT to happen - the UPS will take over and protect your gear when the PW temporarily goes over 63 Hz! The UPS itself has a frequency output tolerance of +/- 1% or 0.6 Hz.
Definitely a good summary as I understand it, and am appreciative others worked out the issues and got Tesla to understand and provide at least a partial solution. I know it won't help those of us who already have an install, but I do hope one day there will be a better mechanism that Tesla can use (that meets code) to handle this communication. Changing the frequency to kill the solar is clever, but it seems like a dedicated communication channel to explicitly command the inverters and panels would be better (and also provide flexibility, like turning off only one inverter to match demand, for example.)
Based on the early issues, as I was replacing my UPS devices starting a bit over a year, I went with the Eatons. Even though it now looks like it is much easier to get Tesla to drop to 62Hz, I figured best to have the issue covered both ways. And the reviews and my personal experience so far has been very good with the Eatons. Like I think everybody so far, I think it still makes sense to have UPS devices on sensitive and/or important electronics to handle brief interruptions in power as well as to provide surge protection.
aesculus
Still Trying to Figure This All Out
Your comment is spot on but this is an industry that is slow to change and one that likes to depend on the electrical properties of devices vs communications and IT. Hopefully they can take a more programmatic approach in the future with the frequency adjustment as a last ditch backup.Getting them to agree on a standard though will be daunting, especially in the current climate, no pun intended.
aesculus
Still Trying to Figure This All Out
I had my kill o watt engaged and also demonstrated that my insteon lights were not working right over their heads when they were on site. The level X person on the other end of the line talking to the on site Tesla technician was having none of it and did not want to talk to me either. 62 Hz was what I was getting and that was that.
I've applied the Puerto Rico ("PREPA") profile to my IQ6 inverters. Slow disconnect is 61.80hz after 1,000ms and my Powerwall is configured to 62.00hz maximum. More details on this thread My grid outage frequency issue is resolved!.
I know I am not @gpez but If I remember correctly, in his particular setup his inverters support the "ramping" feature that gradually raises the frequency so the shutoff is more gradual, rather than "on / off". Of course, he will correct me if I am mis remembering this
This is correct! That PREPA profile starts ramping down the maximum power each inverter will produce starting at 60.20hz (100%) to 61.40hz (0%). The astute reader will note that's actually a bit lower than the slow disconnect which just means that technically the system will shut down fully at the 61.40hz level.
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