CPUC NEM 3.0 discussion

[dakhlkt22]

You could, and those that are proponents of 'social justice' want to redistribute taxes to those groups they view as disadvantaged (or whatever.)
I've learned to shy away from those approaches because I find the political corruption and inefficiency too great to stomach, even though I am sympathetic to the idea.

My approach has boiled down to what I consider the least perverse of what we can do in a capitalist society: get rid of externalized costs, so that the price of goods and consumptions reflect their actual costs. Currently almost all pollution costs are not priced into fossil fuels. This distorts the market in extremely undesirable ways, specifically it engenders uninformed consumer choice, it discourages conservation, it retards innovation, and it leaves it up to politicians to decide who pays for the pollution related damages.

It's surprising that a state like California hasn't already imposed its own statewide carbon pricing to account for externalities like pollution and carbon.

NY participates in the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative (RGGI). So there is carbon pricing for power producers on or near the East Coast in states that participate. Although only power producers have to participate, so a lot of carbon is still unpriced out here.

 

[sunwarriors]

Yes, but ...
Distributed solar has ancillary service, resilience, transmission and clean energy values. Bake the entire value into the wholesale price. This is of course a lot easier said than done because the values are in dispute. I personally think the simple and efficient approach is to implement a carbon tax since that is the lion's share of the value chain.

You also didn't mention that these are for profit companies which lobby hard in state governments to push though whatever is proposed with rate hikes or policy/legislation. Similar to this new monthly income fee requirement soon to roll out in mid 2024, after that passes, on face value, it looks like it will result in lower conservation because rates are supposedly going down by 1/4 or 1/3?

PG&E should've been taken over and stock/bondholders should take the bulk of the losses. I'm still in favor of more localized generation/storage locally within one's own area/residence.

Also, CA utilities are compensated a percentage of what they put in for capital spending projects and guaranteed like 10% profits no matter what. MORE spending = more profits by how simple math is done. There is no reason for these folks to have folks use less, be more efficient, etc etc etc.

Yeah, I get we are a capitalistic society and why I think the whole electric energy model is broken now. Water rates aren't like this (at least not from my vantage point and experience).

As we've seen with the heat/cold spells, no power or lack of power could lead to a life/death situation.

Sempra to give investors record profits after SDG&E customer bill spikes

Investors of Sempra Energy, the parent company of San Diego Gas & Electric, will receive their largest quarterly payout yet.

inewsource.org

 

[whisperingshad]

Adding a battery was hard math even on NEM2.0 and I never thought or expected (or advised anyone) any ROI on NEM2.0 and folks are saying add a battery on NEM3.0 now? That's just silly goose territory (for ROI at least).

As for people saying add solar anyways, I'd say do it for self sufficiency or to say fu to the IOUs, but I still am on side of wait for now. Remember, there is the income based monthly fee soon. Is the fee $128+/month? $5/month, $20/month even though you are in poverty right now in CA?

Income-based electric bills: The newest utility fight in California

A state law calling for utility bills to be based on household income could drive adoption of EVs and heat pumps — or punish rooftop solar and efficiency.

www.canarymedia.com

In some areas, we're over $0.85+/kWh already (San Diego) with the added benefit (sarcasm) that SD gets 1:0.13 vs. 1:0.25 in the rest of the state of net metering.

Prices will probably keep going up as well. Solar stocks are getting killed and not a surprise with high interest rates, installs are probably dead on NEM3.0 and CA has 50% of the solar market in the US.

Off grid

 

[swedge]

Does your description account for the different times that you are a net user of electricity or a net supplier of electricity. You generate solar during the day. Once you stop generating solar in the evening, you are using utility power. Seasonally, the utilities are getting energy from a lot of net daytime solar suppliers in the sunnier months, and then utilities turn around and provide energy to net users the rest of the year.

Isn't this a bad thing, though, because as I mentioned above, the attributed value of solar to the grid should be closer to its actual value. Averaging that solar supply in a non-real way artificially subsidizes solar users. Don't get me wrong, I love solar incentives, but maybe subsidizing solar isn't the job of the utilities. The legislature should make a decision on whether the state wants to subsidize solar. Seems to me the utility commission should be trying to match their pricing to reflect the actual value of the electricity supplied to the grid and treat solar like any other wholesale provider of electricity.

I have a PowerWall, and it powers the house during the high demand, low solar peak price period. Solar, without a battery does not help as much with the costs to the utility, but the Lookback Study report on which the NEM3 decision was based does say that NEM reduced overall costs for the utilities.

But NEM is revenue neutral for the utility. It is in no way a "subsidy". What does hurt the utility is that solar customer's use less electricity. But describing that as a subsidy is the point of my post. It is using deceptive terminology to promote regulation to kill solar. If I replace lighting with LEDs, which reduces my usage, is the utility subsidizing my LEDs? If I decide to cook at home rather than go to McDonalds as often, are other McDonalds customers subsidizing my dinner?

And, if you are worried that using less electricity is bad for utilities, don't. EVs, heat pumps, tall buildings, apartment dwellers, are all keeping demand climbing.

As for "attributed value", under NEM there is no question about the value. I paid for the electricity, and got credited the same when I returned it. The only time the utility actually pays me for electricity is if, over the course of the NEM year, I export more than I import. That excess is credited at the utilities average wholesale cost, as you suggested. NEM credits are only credits against payments I have already made. And your argument about actual vs attributed value conflates the value to the consumer with the cost to the utility. The consumer reduces his retail cost by supplying his own power. The utility's incremental cost is only the fuel cost for generation.

My point was that by using such deceptive terms as "payments" and "subsidies" to describe the NEM transactions, utilities managed to hoodwink the CPUC into killing solar.

 

[sunwarriors]

There are a lot of comments on this thread about going off grid and it being illegal in FL by folks who tried and some from places in LA saying it's impossible if you're already connected. I still haven't found real info/data of people doing it (the thread has someone saying they know someone who went off grid though since the utility wanted "hundreds of thousands to upgrade their transformer for his house" - Yeah, I'd probably rather spend hundreds of thousands on my own solution as well), but I know that running a generator just because I, myself am off-grid in my community probably isn't going to fly unless it's some mass power outage or something due to HOA rules (I'm fine with HOAs).

The monthly fee based on income slows solar benefits if rates drop a lot and the income based fee is high/keeps going up a lot. If the fee is very high, wealthy people are ones who can afford to go off-grid possibly, but they will still nail you if you try since it's 'illegal' and even if you can set yourself for self-consumption, you're still paying say, $1500 a year (if $128/month) for using absolutely no grid power.

https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comments/17fhws1

Edit: What's funny about the article is that CPUC complains about poor people getting shafted by wealthy NEM1/2 homeowners (class warfare), and now something like this clearly shafts poor people who are normally, the renters, etc...

 

[getakey]

has anyone tried this solar calculator. I useed it and it seems to be very optimistic.

WattPlan

pge.wattplan.com

 

[MountainRatMat]

has anyone tried this solar calculator. I useed it and it seems to be very optimistic.

WattPlan

pge.wattplan.com

That is very geographically specific, you must be on PG&E power to use it

 

[getakey]

That is very geographically specific, you must be on PG&E power to use it

yes, understood, but I cannot see how someone with PG&E can get a 6 or 7 year payback under NEM3

 

[charlesj]

yes, understood, but I cannot see how someone with PG&E can get a 6 or 7 year payback under NEM3

Maybe they don't think anyone will double check their methodology.

 

[getakey]

Maybe they don't think anyone will double check their methodology.

Installers are using it to show the ROI to prospects

 

[BGbreeder]

has anyone tried this solar calculator. I useed it and it seems to be very optimistic.

WattPlan

pge.wattplan.com

Well, it estimated that I could get solar for about 30-40% of market rates (9kW install for $11k), so yes, I can see how it get to the estimated 7 year payback.

I can't think of a single word adjective to describe it well, but the word misleading comes to mind.

All the best,

BG

 

[charlesj]

Well, it estimated that I could get solar for about 30-40% of market rates (9kW install for $11k), so yes, I can see how it get to the estimated 7 year payback.

I can't think of a single word adjective to describe it well, but the word misleading comes to mind.

All the best,

BG

How else would they be able to convince CPUC that NEM3 is needed.

 

[charlesj]

Well, it estimated that I could get solar for about 30-40% of market rates (9kW install for $11k), so yes,

...

BG

My solar back in 2012, that I installed myself and is only 3.8kW, cost me $10k after IRS rebate.
Insane where they think you can have it done by someone, other than me , for that price.

 

[BGbreeder]

My solar back in 2012, that I installed myself and is only 3.8kW, cost me $10k after IRS rebate.
Insane where they think you can have it done by someone, other than me , for that price.

Insane, yes, that's the word I want!

 

[sunwarriors]

Saw this recent thread on reddit and this website (one sided against the utilities of course) spells out the upcoming utility tax or that fixed fee based on income. Since utility profits are directly tied to spending and infrastructure projects, I'd guess that's a not going to happen and with this proposal, less reason to conserve/use less:

Proposed Utility Tax would increase electricity bills for millions, undermine rooftop solar, and discourage conservation

SummaryThe utilities the the CA Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) are proposing to charge most residential ratepayers a Utility Tax of $24 per month. The

solarrights.org

"

• The solution to stabilizing the high cost of electricity is to reduce spending on long distance power lines and other large-scale grid infrastructure. This can be accomplished by reducing the amount of electricity we need from the grid. That includes more conservation, efficiency, rooftop solar, and batteries. More rooftop solar and batteries could reduce the cost of the grid by $120 billion over the next thirty years. Energy efficiency has saved ratepayers more than $100 billion over the past 20 years.

"

https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comments/17md1dw

Ready for another $40 a month rate hike from PG&E?

Concerns over potential PG&E rate hikes.

www.ktvu.com

 

[charlesj]

.... Since utility profits are directly tied to spending and infrastructure projects, ....

Would a revenue and expense report reflect only the guaranteed return on investments or something else?

I ask because our for profit water company here had revenue of $93 million and expense of around $50 mil. Somewhat more than the guaranteed 9% or 10%.
We are in the process of an eminent domain buyout.

 

[mspohr]

Would a revenue and expense report reflect only the guaranteed return on investments or something else?

I ask because our for profit water company here had revenue of $93 million and expense of around $50 mil. Somewhat more than the guaranteed 9% or 10%.
We are in the process of an eminent domain buyout.

I think the guaranteed return is the base used to set rates. Anything the utility can grab above that is theirs to keep.

 

[RKCRLR]

You know how the utilities run those commercials on how to conserve and silly ways to reduce your consumption? Now they'll be advertising ways to reduce your income to get you into a lower monthly fee bracket.

 

[swedge]

You know how the utilities run those commercials on how to conserve and silly ways to reduce your consumption? Now they'll be advertising ways to reduce your income to get you into a lower monthly fee bracket.

Or maybe telling you how to get a raise or a better job, i.e. raising your energy bill farther still for the same energy.

 

[sunwarriors]

Article:

California rooftop solar policy struggles serve as warning to nation

In the <b>pv magazine</b> Roundtables US 2023 live event, four expert panelists shared their views on the post-NEM 3.0 California rooftop solar market, and how energy storage will need to play an increasingly important role.

pv-magazine-usa.com

" we are looking at an 80% drop in sales under the new NBT tariff. The months ahead are looking dimmer, not bright..."

From here for folks who don't monitor reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comments/17rks8x

It's sorta interesting how batteries were debated back and forth when NEM1.0/2.0 was a thing (and it was not common for batteries back then) and people were already balking at the added cost to add them since funds for late solar adopters were already tight, but it's now a requirement with NEM3.0 and everyone is expected to have another $15k-$20k just to go solar now.

For folks who had trouble even getting solar this late in the game, now they need another $15-$20k to play?

I'm still looking/waiting for someone to post a how to on leaving the grid. I've yet to read a single story of one where someone was on-grid and left within the major IOU areas.

2024 has the upcoming fixed fee based on income supposed to take effect as well.