Cali utilities propose Income Based electricity rates

[sorka]

My concern has always been charge a massively high monthly rate for all, lower rates by 33% now. Continue to raise the monthly fee higher and higher each year and in 3 years as well, we will see the variable rate right back up to the old rates even with the high monthly fees.

I still feel there really is no solution until the IOUs are taken over and made non-profit or better yet, get more local with power so I don't have to deal with folks in Sacramento or selfishly, folks in rural areas where we have to run millions of transmission lines for 10 houses, etc...They can go off grid or something and PG&E can stop burning those cities to the ground due to their poor maintenance.

110% chance this is not only what will happen but exactly what they intend to happen.

I'm 10 years off from retirement. This is just one more nail in the coffin that is pushing me to do an IRA to Roth conversion. Its becoming increasingly obvious that I need to reduce taxable income in retirement not just to avoid income taxes, but to avoid these sorts of regressive taxes that unevenly punish (i.e. guts net metering in this case). If I don't do the Roth conversion, I'll still be having to pay the $128 / month just from RMDs. Might need to delay SS until 70 as well.

 

[bkp_duke]

We should not even be discussing ACCEPTING an income-based fee for electricity, or anything else. What's next? Income based charges for groceries? Income based charges for water/sewer?

Once the legislature gets away with pushing this through ONCE, it opens the floodgates for everything to be "equity" based.

I'm sorry, but the gov should not be sharing individuals' income levels with anyone, period.

 

[tivoboy]

We should not even be discussing ACCEPTING an income-based fee for electricity, or anything else. What's next? Income based charges for groceries? Income based charges for water/sewer?

Once the legislature gets away with pushing this through ONCE, it opens the floodgates for everything to be "equity" based.

I'm sorry, but the gov should not be sharing individuals' income levels with anyone, period.

Well, technically all those things you list ALREADY HAVE an income based fee structure. all electricity providers already have a low tier fee structure for qualified low income households.. same is true for “groceries” in the form of many different types of direct subsidies from both the states and the federal gov’t to be used only for nutritional purchases. Same for healthcare, ACA subsidies (I think there are five strata), most health care PROVIDERS will allow different tiers of both co-pays (or not) and co-insurance rates (or not) for several of the lowest tiers of socio-economic household levels, the lowest tiers paying essentially NOTHING above what whatever insurance, Medicare, medicaid, or private insurance covers as the accepted amount.

So this CA state proposal really just seems to be a more organized and stratified method vs. the one brute force one they use today?

 

[Unclepaul]

Honest people that report their income will pay more with this bill.

Crooks that do not report their full income will pay less with this bill.

The poor will remain poor, while the rich will remain rich.

 

[bkp_duke]

Well, technically all those things you list ALREADY HAVE an income based fee structure. all electricity providers already have a low tier fee structure for qualified low income households.. same is true for “groceries” in the form of many different types of direct subsidies from both the states and the federal gov’t to be used only for nutritional purchases. Same for healthcare, ACA subsidies (I think there are five strata), most health care PROVIDERS will allow different tiers of both co-pays (or not) and co-insurance rates (or not) for several of the lowest tiers of socio-economic household levels, the lowest tiers paying essentially NOTHING above what whatever insurance, Medicare, medicaid, or private insurance covers as the accepted amount.

So this CA state proposal really just seems to be a more organized and stratified method vs. the one brute force one they use today?

Details matter.

NO, the CA Gov DOES NOT share info for people to get lowered elec rates if they are low income. Those people have to VOLUNTEER that information and provide it to the utilities. It's a VERY VERY different beast when the CA Gov would just hand it over, en masse, to PRIVATE companies.

Same thing for SNAP, etc. You MUST APPLY for those programs and provide proof of income. It's not handed over by default.


Again, this is a VERY VERY different beast. This isn't individuals CHOSING to share their income information. This is the GOV doing it for everyone. There are serious questions of if that is even legal (on the Federal level).

 

[tivoboy]

Honest people that report their income will pay more with this bill.

Crooks that do not report their full income will pay less with this bill.

The poor will remain poor, while the rich will remain rich.

Historically to gain access to a lower tier, household income based fee structure one had to provide a tax return, or W-2 , 1099 in the absence of that.

I have the feeling that with something like this new CA income based tier structure, the provider is probably going to access something like state based AGI via the state. It would be very easy for the state to allow access to a simply report some of the socio-economic tiers and stratification that the Federal gov’t (and most likely the state gov’t uses) like 100% of federal poverty rate, 101-200% of federal poverty rate, 201-400%, etc. This customer is in category A, B, C, etc.

Not sure, it might be the type of thing where they allow ppl to self report, but then have some NON state gov’t based data that they use to individually audit and require documentation. I’m not sure which is less onerous, or less of a privacy impact to the taxpayer or the electricity provider.

 

[tivoboy]

Details matter.

NO, the CA Gov DOES NOT share info for people to get lowered elec rates if they are low income. Those people have to VOLUNTEER that information and provide it to the utilities. It's a VERY VERY different beast when the CA Gov would just hand it over, en masse, to PRIVATE companies.

Same thing for SNAP, etc. You MUST APPLY for those programs and provide proof of income. It's not handed over by default.


Again, this is a VERY VERY different beast. This isn't individuals CHOSING to share their income information. This is the GOV doing it for everyone. There are serious questions of if that is even legal (on the Federal level).

I never said that the CA GOV (or even the Federal Gov’t) shares ANY info. I simply said that all these providers offer some access to a program, but it is certainly done by the TAXPAYER at this point and requires them to submit some type of information.

 

[whydontwe]

This is the worst idea ever, ever in history. As someone mentioned, we already have low-income programs and yes, it's enrollment-based. So, why don't they require IOUs to market those programs better? What is this new proposed program going to solve? I don't see an issue today. Does this apply to natural gas? Like So Cal Gas?

 

[Big Dog]

Historically to gain access to a lower tier, household income based fee structure one had to provide a tax return, or W-2 , 1099 in the absence of that.

I have the feeling that with something like this new CA income based tier structure, the provider is probably going to access something like state based AGI via the state. It would be very easy for the state to allow access to a simply report some of the socio-economic tiers and stratification that the Federal gov’t (and most likely the state gov’t uses) like 100% of federal poverty rate, 101-200% of federal poverty rate, 201-400%, etc. This customer is in category A, B, C, etc.

Not sure, it might be the type of thing where they allow ppl to self report, but then have some NON state gov’t based data that they use to individually audit and require documentation. I’m not sure which is less onerous, or less of a privacy impact to the taxpayer or the electricity provider.

Alternatively, everyone gets charged the higher rate initially (other than folks already on SNAP or other low income program), and folks and invited to complete an app to be considered for a lower tier. That is voluntary.

 

[Big Dog]

This is the worst idea ever, ever in history. As someone mentioned, we already have low-income programs and yes, it's enrollment-based. So, why don't they require IOUs to market those programs better? What is this new proposed program going to solve? I don't see an issue today. Does this apply to natural gas? Like So Cal Gas?

No need. NatGas will be phased out over time.

 

[tangible1]

Alternatively, everyone gets charged the higher rate initially (other than folks already on SNAP or other low income program), and folks and invited to complete an app to be considered for a lower tier. That is voluntary.

that's exactly the plan.
the smokescreen of applying for the lower rate allows pols to say "they care", while masking the real goal - raising the revenues in a way presented as "equitable".

this is akin to Finland charging a % of your annual income for a speeding ticket. that's coming to CA as well.

 

[charlesj]

that's exactly the plan.
the smokescreen of applying for the lower rate allows pols to say "they care", while masking the real goal - raising the revenues in a way presented as "equitable".

this is akin to Finland charging a % of your annual income for a speeding ticket. that's coming to CA as well.

What's the penalty for lying on that document?

 

[tangible1]

What's the penalty for lying on that document?

they check it against your State tax return......and you have to authorize them to access it. if not, no discount.