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Braking in rain

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I realize that this is an apples-to-oranges comparison, but I found this bit on page 164 of my 2006 Scion tC's owner's manual. I don't have access to a Model S owner's manual.

Do not continue normal driving when the brakes are wet. If they are wet, your vehicle will require a longer stopping distance, and it may pull to one side when the brakes are applied. Also, the parking brake will not hold the vehicle securely.

I realize that a decade-old Scion is a very different car when compared with a new Tesla Model S, but disc brakes are pretty much the same from car to car.
 
Like I said, it is a basic driving thing.
Wow. Thank you for enlightening us. Before blaming drivers for a car behavior that I have, again, never experienced in any other vehicle, please make sure that we are talking about the same thing here. I know that wet brakes are not as effective as dry ones. However, what I had experienced, and I believe some of the other posters as well, was a dramatic reduction in braking power to maybe 20%. It felt like pushing into soft butter. And it did not go away fast, even while pumping the brake pedal. Your vehicles had all much higher VINs and I suspect you have not experienced this (which is a good thing). Why would there be a TSB if no issue had been identified by Tesla?
 
Wow. Thank you for enlightening us. Before blaming drivers for a car behavior that I have, again, never experienced in any other vehicle, please make sure that we are talking about the same thing here. I know that wet brakes are not as effective as dry ones. However, what I had experienced, and I believe some of the other posters as well, was a dramatic reduction in braking power to maybe 20%. It felt like pushing into soft butter. And it did not go away fast, even while pumping the brake pedal. Your vehicles had all much higher VINs and I suspect you have not experienced this (which is a good thing). Why would there be a TSB if no issue had been identified by Tesla?

I have had this happen in my P85 (P21636, as mentioned earlier in this very thread) when I've forgotten to dry my brakes. Pedal to the floor and next to zero stopping power. After pumping through some full wheel rotations to remove grime from the rotors the issue was resolved, as expected. Had I either been following too closely or a vehicle unexpectedly come out in front of me I would be in the same situation as the poster a few posts back. However, I'd have no one to blame except myself.
 
@Jeeps17: Maybe the water on your rotors froze, thus could not be squeezed off by the pads. Jan 1st in Montreal - not so far fetched an idea.

ICE could really hamper the effectiveness of the old 'hard, harder, even harder' braking routine.

My own tendency in winter driving is to (try to) imagine all roads being covered with black ice. You can't see it but you know its there.
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@Jeeps17: Maybe the water on your rotors froze, thus could not be squeezed off by the pads. Jan 1st in Montreal - not so far fetched an idea.

Definitely possible, I have been mulling about this quite a bit (as you can imagine).

(Expensive) lesson learned for me with this car, after 20+ years of canadian winter driving without a single incident.

If anything I hope these posts can prevent others in similar climes to have such unfortunate outcomes. I for one wish I had read this thread earlier...

Now I have to wait for monday to go to a body shop to open the frunk so I can access my kids' snow pants, without which they are stuck inside and driving my wife and I bonkers !
 
I've posted earlier in this thread, as I originally had the issue of non-responsive brakes under some wet conditions as well. And while one circumstance in which it could be manifested was after long periods in the rain not using your brakes, that's not the only circumstance in which I experienced it. I could get it to happen after exiting the car wash. I'd experience fade 5 minutes after having used my brakes.

Neither of those circumstances manifested themselves with my other vehicles.

Whats more, after having reported it to the service center, they applied updates to my car: updated brake pads, rotors, and splash shields. It hasn't happened since after a number of trials under near-identical circumstances.

Thus, since it can manifest in situations other than after prolonged periods of no-brake application, and there are mechanical retrofits to prevent it, I suggest placing blame only upon the driver might not be wholly appropriate.

My condolances Jeeps17, that sucks. As an aside, any chance the manual frunk release under the glove compartment might get it open for you?
 
While I'm sorry to hear about your accident, I feel the need to point out that this issue is not something specific to Tesla nor any fault of the vehicle...

I beg to differ. I drive a very predictable route to work and have done so in several brands of cars over the years. I get on to a freeway and drive for about 30 miles without having to use the brakes. My commute is against traffic and I can generally use Cruise the whole way. With the Model S I have to be very careful when I hit my exit ramp if it's wet because I've learned the brakes will NOT perform well until I stand on them for quite a few seconds. I never experienced this in other cars where I've driven the same route without touching the brakes for the same length of time.

I also have the same issue coming out of car washes. The first time I nearly drove straight into traffic at the car wash exit when the brakes were weak. Again, NEVER had anything like that with other cars.
 
Well, considering the wet conditions issue exists and persists on every Model S I've had (P85, P85, and my less than two weeks old P85D) as well as every other car I've ever owned, I'm going to have to call shenanigans on the whole thing with a TSB that replaces pads and such solves such a vehicle operation problem.

If there were a safety issue related to the braking system then this would certainly be a required recall, not some obscure TSB. Since no such recall exists it is pretty safe to say that no such mechanical safety issue exists. There is simply no combination of brake pads, rotors, splash guards, dirt protectors, etc that are immune to the problem of decreased performance from being wet/oily. Disc brakes are not enclosed as they need to be exposed for cooling purposes, and thus are subject to getting wet in wet conditions. This is pretty basic stuff that anyone who has been driving for any length of time should know.

In your example of after exiting a car wash, it is always good practice to thoroughly dry your brakes in this case even on warm and clear days. Water mixed with soaps and other cleaners, even after being rinsed, will linger in a disc brake system and cause severely hampered and unsafe braking performance.

Just "using" the brakes does not necessarily dry them. They need to be applied through multiple full wheel rotations, generally a dozen or more depending on conditions, to start to actually clear them of water and other friction-preventing agents. Regenerative braking lessens the load on the friction brakes even at low speeds, and so more revolutions are required for sure while using regen. In the cold this is even more crucial as ice can get into places and physically prevent the pads from engaging.

Again, all of this is for any car, not just Tesla. I don't see anything here that points to brakes not functioning properly outside of wet conditions anyway.

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I beg to differ. I drive a very predictable route to work and have done so in several brands of cars over the years. I get on to a freeway and drive for about 30 miles without having to use the brakes. My commute is against traffic and I can generally use Cruise the whole way. With the Model S I have to be very careful when I hit my exit ramp if it's wet because I've learned the brakes will NOT perform well until I stand on them for quite a few seconds. I never experienced this in other cars where I've driven the same route without touching the brakes for the same length of time.

I also have the same issue coming out of car washes. The first time I nearly drove straight into traffic at the car wash exit when the brakes were weak. Again, NEVER had anything like that with other cars.

The issue was surely present on the other vehicles, whether you noticed it or not. Keep in mind all of the variables here also.

Were your other vehicles automatic transmission ICE vehicles? If so, torque creep when starting and stopping requires use of the brakes, which would help begin a drying process when leaving a car wash, where in the Model S you aren't using the brakes except to hold the car at a stop.

For the off ramp situation, keep in mind there is regen at work here in the Model S also, and at highway off-ramp speeds is sucking up a large percentage of the energy needed to stop the vehicle that is then not needed to be dissipated by the friction brakes, requiring less use of them. In your ICE vehicle(s), nearly 100% of that stopping power is required of the brakes, so whether you realize it or not you are applying them more in the other vehicles (thus facilitating quicker drying) than you are in the Model S in this situation, and definitely applying them more in wet conditions than otherwise.
 
I'm going to have to call shenanigans on the whole thing with a TSB that replaces pads and such solves such a vehicle operation problem.

Feel free to call what you like.

The fact is that Tesla called me after I experienced the issue and discussed it here, explaining that their engineering had updated components to address it.

While undoubtedly all braking systems can be adversely affected by some conditions, Tesla's engineering felt the situation could be improved. My direct experience and testing seems to indicate it has been.


wk057 said:
There is simply no combination of brake pads, rotors, splash guards, dirt protectors, etc that are immune to the problem of decreased performance from being wet/oily.

On the contrary, nobody ever claimed "immunity", however it appears that the combination of the metallic content of the particular brake pads in use tended to leave metallic dust on the rotor surface. Given the braking effect of regen, that dust in turn was not scrubbed off as often. Subsequently as a result of no splash guards, water could more easily find it's way to the disc surface in some circumstances, causing scale build up. This surface in turn more easily suspended additional water film.

Yup, I know how to dry brakes. I specifically became acutely aware of the need to do it after wetter driving conditions when I first experienced it in my earlier Model S, and could manifest the issue in controlled circumstance. I can tell you that in some of those same circumstances, it no longer happens.

So you tell me how after the change I can now stop prior to the first speed bump after the car wash when previously I was unable to? Repeatedly.
 
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Bmw has a software feature that lightly applies the brakes periodically to dry them. Just enough to create some friction but not enough to be very noticeable by the driver. With the new brake system Tesla could easily do the same.
 
The fact is that Tesla called me after I experienced the issue and discussed it here, explaining that their engineering had updated components to address it.

Not going to continue arguing here since I seem to be getting no where (more people will simply jump to Tesla's defense soon anyway...)

My point is, if there is/was a safety issue with the braking system that Tesla has resolved, then this should be a mandatory recall, every car should already have been offered the recall, and it would not be something that an owner should have to find out about themselves after an incident. Tesla didn't just call you out of the blue and schedule this "update"/TSB.

On the contrary, nobody ever claimed "immunity", however it appears that the combination of the metallic content of the particular brake pads in use tended to leave metallic dust on the rotor surface. Given the braking effect of regen, that dust in turn was not scrubbed off as often. Subsequently as a result of no splash guards, water could more easily find it's way to the disc surface in some circumstances, causing scale build up. This surface in turn more easily suspended additional water film.

Sure, there are brake pads and rotor combinations that have better stopping power. Not every car uses the same exact pads/rotors. While your description of the process sounds enlightening, I assure you that this is not the only vehicle that has the same material in the pads and rotors, and thus not the only vehicle subject to the same loss of friction under wet conditions.

While Tesla likely installed higher performance pads/rotors/etc on your vehicle to address your concern, and it likely has somewhat improved your experience in similar conditions, it is not required. The existing brakes functioned correctly when utilized correctly for the conditions they were used in. The fact that Tesla gave your braking system higher performance components so you don't have to actively practice safe operation of your brakes is certainly not mandatory.

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Bmw has a software feature that lightly applies the brakes periodically to dry them. Just enough to create some friction but not enough to be very noticeable by the driver. With the new brake system Tesla could easily do the same.

Any application of the friction brakes is basically a loss of efficiency. If Tesla were to do something like this then I definitely require an option to disable it, since I know how to use my brakes properly and don't want an automatic efficiency loss.
 
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Not going to continue arguing here since I seem to be getting no where (more people will simply jump to Tesla's defense soon anyway...)

I'm no more arguing here than responding to opposing points of view as did someone I know when defending his assertion that his new P85D used more energy per mile than his fiance's P85. :wink:

And incidentally, I'm not jumping to Tesla's defense. If anything I'm confirming similar experiences to Jeeps17.

While Tesla likely installed higher performance pads/rotors/etc on your vehicle to address your concern, and it likely has somewhat improved your experience in similar conditions, it is not required. The existing brakes functioned correctly when utilized correctly for the conditions they were used in. The fact that Tesla gave your braking system higher performance components so you don't have to actively practice safe operation of your brakes is certainly not mandatory.

Required? Who said that?

However can some portion of the concern be reduced either in frequency or severity? Clearly. Especially with a somewhat innocuous component like a splash shield.

Just because it's not a mandatory recall or TSB doesn't mean that Jeeps17 wasn't affected by something that engineering has been able to improve upon.
 
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To dry your brakes in an EV that has regen as strong as Teslas have, requires *much* more effort than it does in an ICE. Exception would be cold starts on cold days where a Tesla will have no regen at all.

When leaving a car wash or after fording a stream etc the best practice might be simply to drag your brakes firmly while maintaining a modest speed until you reach the point where the brakes spring to life as they become fully dried out, or smoke rises from wheelwells. Burn that soap off as quickly as possible. :eek:

I find it hard to believe that one brand of metallic pad is any better than another in doing this. They have an absorbency factor of what, 0.0%? TM may be schmoozing/placeboing here, nonetheless the subject is a serious aspect of living with REGEN and they are properly emphasizing it.
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My condolances Jeeps17, that sucks. As an aside, any chance the manual frunk release under the glove compartment might get it open for you?

Thanks, it really does not give my anno 2015 an auspicious start.

No, when I pull on the lever nothing happens... The button next to the front latch I cannot even find, the area was significantly distorted by the impact.

The one piece of good news is that the car remains driveable, I should be able to bring it myself to the body shop, and have them open the frunk for me so I can empty it. I have a feeling that once open the frunk would not latch securely enough to drive around. That is my plan, I have to wait until monday to see if the sole Tesla-approved body shop in Montreal can accomodate me on the first day back from the holidays...

That "frunk open" chime does grate on the nerves after a few seconds though... as designed I'm sure.

@wk057: To reiterate, I am not a novice winter driver, and like others have noted I have NEVER had this level of loss of braking power with any other vehicle, including prolonged highway driving without using the friction brakes in wet / icy conditions. YMMV I guess.
 
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Jeeps17, I too had loss of brakes in rain (pedal to the floor) and *would* have hit somebody if the intersection in front of me had cars there! Instead I finally stopped in the middle feeling very upset, foolish and lucky!

However, as mentioned by others (scaesare) Tesla proactively contacted me and after two service visits they informed me that Tesla engineering had a TSB to address the problem. From my service invoice:

Concern: Bulletin: Model S | SB-14-33-001 | Soaked Brakes in Cold Climates
Pay Type: Warranty
Corrections: Install Front Brake Pads Without NVH Masses
Installed Front Brake Pads Without NVH Masses. Removed updated brake pads from new
loaded calipers.
Part Quantity
FR BRAKE CALIPER ASSY M12 RH
(1003161-00-D) 2


I've not had the problem every again but when it rains I tend to purposely use brakes more even if gently to ensure they are dry. But two weeks ago in rain I came to the same intersection and decided to *not* dry my brakes and instead use them to stop quickly. No problem! So I am cautiously optimistic the TSB fixes the problem.

So sorry to hear about your crunch. Hope between insurance and Tesla they make you whole and restore your confidence in the car.
 
Sorry to hear about your accident. I too have had situations where if someone was in front of me I likely would have rear ended them. My wife has on multiple occasions asked me what I was doing because I was not slowing quick enough then suddenly slamming in the brakes in a panic stop because a normal press does nothing.

It always happens when I leave the car wash and it happens intermittently when driving in the rain. The problem had all but went away even at the car wash then we took our car in for service and when we got it back it was doing it again. The service docs said they cleaned the brakes.

I have never had to "dry" my brakes in any other car. Even after driving hundreds of miles through rain and snow on the highways with out touching the brakes.
 
I have an S70D and recently after driving for 2 hours in heavy rain my brakes failed to work twice within a period of 4mins after i got off the highway. Thank god the roads were empty. Tesla service checked the brakes and did not find anything abnormal. I am thinking due to regenerative braking i am not using the brakes enough and this somehow has an adverse affect in severly wet conditions. It does however worry me that I have no control when this could happen again.