Bitcoin, Cryptocurrency and Blockchain Discussion Thread

[heltok]

Crypto in a digital wallet is producing NOTHING!

Some crypto currencies use Proof of Stake, where you can choose hold your coins in a contract that pays "interest" from the transactions/minings as a way to validate transactions. Thus you get paid to just hold the coins.

On Ethereum, the second largest crypto currency, you get 4.5%/year for doing PoS and it's deflationary(0.8%/year).

https://www.bitstamp.net/faq/everything-you-need-to-know-about-eth-staking-at-bitstamp/

Ethereum Now Deflationary for 2 Months Straight

Decentralized exchange Uniswap and NFT marketplace Blur top the ETH burned leaderboard in the past 30 days.

blockworks.co

Ultra Sound Money

watch ETH become ultra sound money

ultrasound.money

 

[CorneliusXX]

I was just pointing out that the last 40 years it's been quite stable then you changed the parameters.

I also disputed the claim.

 

[Knightshade]

Some crypto currencies use Proof of Stake

Which the other guy who made like 10 hilariously wrong posts in a row claimed means it's not "really" a valuable commodity like Bitcoin is!

It's remarkable that the crypto folks can't even agree with themselves on why their fake money is not worthless

 

[JRP3]

I also disputed the claim.

I guess we define stability differently.

 

[daniel]

Some crypto currencies use Proof of Stake, where you can choose hold your coins in a contract that pays "interest" from the transactions/minings as a way to validate transactions. Thus you get paid to just hold the coins.

This is a Ponzi scheme, paying the people who bought in early with money from those who come in later. And it's still not PRODUCING anything. A car company creates value by building cars. A tractor company creates value by building tractors. A farmer creates value by growing food. Ethereum (and other cryptos) only create more crypto by their so-called "mining" operations. Crypto boosters berate governments for printing money, but brag about their "miners" creating more crypto.

Remember, when a company pays interest on its bonds, it does so by using the borrowed money to buy tools or supplies or to build production capacity so that it can create real value (e.g. cars, tractors, food, etc.). Ethereum is not investing your coins to produce anything; it's just giving you a share of the crypto being created out of nothing. It's a scam. And the only way to cash out that "interest" it's giving you is to find someone willing to pay you for it in "fiat" currency.

Because with a very few insignificant exceptions, you cannot buy any of the things you need for day-to-day life with crypto. You have to find a sucker who will give you "fiat" currency for your crypto. And yes, you don't actually have to find the sucker. The exchanges do that for you. But that sucker has to be out there. As soon as people quit buying the worthless digital "coins" the whole thing collapses.

And the very few merchants who will accept crypto, still set their prices in "fiat" currency, and adjust their exchange rate minute-by-minute, and cash out your crypto immediately, at a rate that's a loss for you. You're still really paying in fiat currency, but the merchant saves you the bother of going through the exchange to cash it out, by doing it for you, for a fee, in the form of an exchange rate that's unfavorable to you.

 

[ChooseFreedom]

I don't keep money in the bank, except for current expenses. My money is invested where it pays interest or dividends. It would be silly to keep more than current operating cash in the bank. Currency is not intended as a way to store wealth, though some people may use it that way. Currency is intended as a medium of exchange:

Meanwhile, crypto pays nothing, it just goes up or down with the vagaries of the market.

Inflation of the currency doesn't matter to someone who invests their savings in anything productive. Because, again, currency is so that you can be paid for your labor in a way that lets you buy what you need.

But crypto cannot do that because it might lose 10% or 20% or 50% of its value between payday and shopping day or rent day. Nobody uses crypto for normal daily expenses. if you live in the U.S. you use dollars. Your crypto is merely a speculation that you hold because you think it will rise in value. And when you need money, if you don't have enough dollars, you exchange your crypto for dollars so you can actually buy stuff.

All these people who rail against "fiat" money and shout about how great crypto is, if they work for a living they're paid in fiat currency, and they buy their groceries and pay their rent in fiat currency. Fiat currency is what they live by. Crypto is just what they buy with their extra money, because they believe it will go up in value. It doesn't produce anything. it doesn't serve any purpose. It's just digital cash

My savings are in stocks of companies that actually produce value by making things, and in bonds which are loans to companies that use the money to produce value by making things, and then paying me interest for the use of it. (Actually, mutual funds which hold those stocks and bonds, thus spreading out and diluting risks.) My money is being used to create value. Crypto in a digital wallet is producing NOTHING!

I think you may be confused about what money is. You're switching back and forth between currency and money.
Money can be anything standardized that 2 or more people agree to use as a medium of exchange. Throughout history it's been various things from seashells, glass beads, wampum, to more recently precious metals.
Currency is simply one form of money. A government issued, controlled, form of currency is fiat, which in the current system has been accepted as money, and since 1971, the USD has been backed by nothing but the USG's promise, and everyone's faith in it.

At least Bitcoin is open source, free to anyone to use, can't be inflated, manipulated, or counterfeited.
So once the world learns more about it, and the education is already out there, and spreading, why wouldn't the majority of people put their faith in Bitcoin vs any government or private group?

When you say "crypto pays nothing", neither does USD on it's own. (Currency vs Money)
It's what you're using it to buy that is "paying" you.
And you can use Bitcoin to buy more and more everyday. You can buy Starbucks in El Salvador with Bitcoin.

Even in the US, you can now buy a house using Bitcoin. No, I don't mean sell the BTC for USD and buy the house. Legitimately use a block-chain transaction between a buyer and seller, cutting out the banks and all their fees entirely. That's a free market self-sovereign reality now. Bitcoin Is Creeping Into Real Estate Deals

It won't happen overnight, plenty of people aren't ready yet, but it is happening.
The younger generation are growing up not knowing a world without Bitcoin. They will be the generation that embraces it, makes it the standard because they actually have a better option that we didn't have until now. I hold BTC for my kids and grandkids, knowing I may not see the day of hyperbitcoinization.

Entire countries are using Bitcoin as their legal tender, because their own fiat failed.
And the USD will probably be the last fiat to fail, but it inevitably will. They ALL DO.
But the current fiat system won't go quietly. It will have to be dragged out kicking and screaming because of short-sighted people trying to hang on to it until its dying breath.

The volatility of Bitcoin's price is only because it is still temporarily linked to the dying fiat.
Anything and everything can be priced in BTC, bought, sold, evaluated, collateralized, and traded in BTC.
1 BTC = 1 BTC
What you don't understand is that the price is irrelevant. Once the majority of the world is on the Bitcoin Standard, and sound money returns, we can get back to doing business the way it's supposed to be, before Wall St. A Free Market Society. A world where the entire economy isn't reliant on debt to "grow". Strong, legitimate businesses don't need debt/loans to grow. The current system allows bad businesses to hang on the vine longer than they should. All businesses should be allowed to fail if they suck. The small local business owners are all but obsolete because of the current system doesn't reward sound business. It rewards debt accumulation, and portfolio size, and political donations, and on and on...
An economy running on sound money won't be a slave to the inflation death cycle.
Then, and only then, will all of these fiat problems go away.

You said it yourself without even realizing it.
"It's just digital cash".
Yes, It is the digital dollar/gold. It's the single greatest version of MONEY that has ever existed! It's the future.
The USG knows the future of money is digital. Why do you think they're trying to develop a CBDC? Their own version of Bitcoin!
But one they can control, and will control us all if allowed to launch it.
In the digital age, especially with AI coming online more, it only makes sense that the best digital form of money will be what's used.
Physical cash is obsolete.


And these kind of threads with people like us arguing is exactly what they want. Because we're easier to conquer when we're divided.
I'm just trying to educate people and get them to open their eyes! Educate yourself. Do your own research. I don't have all the answers, and maybe after learning more, your opinions are different than mine. That's okay! I respect you. At least you'd be informed.

It's a simple start. Just ask yourself "What is money?"
It's not even a Bitcoin question. A quick Google search to start your education. Put your ego aside. (I had to)
It was eye-opening to me!
Why isn't this stuff taught in school? Not even in college (Keynes-only economic principles). (Google: Austrian economic theory)
Of course it's because the powers that be don't want the everyman (& women) to know what they're doing, which is keeping us oppressed, working slaves to debt, with the illusion of freedom. They just want us to go about our everyday lives oblivious to it all, ignorant really!
Let's stick together, learn what they don't want us to know, and move forward with confidence!

 

[ChooseFreedom]

Which the other guy who made like 10 hilariously wrong posts in a row claimed means it's not "really" a valuable commodity like Bitcoin is!

It's remarkable that the crypto folks can't even agree with themselves on why their fake money is not worthless

Just like any new technology, the USG is going to be slow and hesitant to define it. Not "crypto folks".

But currently, the only difference that means anything to the gov, is how they are proofed.

ETH chose to change their proofing to a staked setup. The Securities and Exchange Commission has defined any proof of stake as a speculative security.


Bitcoin is now the only significant proof of work left.
So, according to the SEC, it's the only one that is treated as a true commodity.
That distinction is everything! It is treated differently in almost every way from a standpoint of exchanges, taxes, and property.

 

[daniel]

... At least Bitcoin is open source, free to anyone to use, can't be inflated, manipulated, or counterfeited. ...

Just to pick one line out of the ridiculous nonsense above:

Bitcoin is not free to use: It uses a flock-ton of electricity to process each transaction and a gazillion times that much to "mine" new "coins." Right now, the miners are using their profits to subsidize the transaction costs, but once the yield on "mining" drops too far (because of the limited number of coins available) that cost will have to be paid by the users. And it will be significant.

Bitcoin CONSTANTLY inflates and deflates, which is to say its value is wildly erratic, due to the thing boosters love about it: Lack of regulation. The thing they love is the thing that makes it useless as a medium of exchange.

Bitcoin not only CAN be manipulated, but it IS manipulated constantly as people hype it to get people who don't know any better to buy into it. (Which, BTW, they do, not by promising a "better" currency, but by promising huge profits when, presumably, the price goes up and they can sell it.) Bitcoin is manipulated the same way volatile stocks are manipulated.

I'll grant you that Bitcoin cannot be counterfeited, but it can easily be lost, and when lost it cannot be recovered. If a person succumbs to a scam and sends their BTC to a scammer, there's ZERO hope of getting it back.

The only uses for crypto are speculation (i.e. gambling) and keeping criminal activity under the radar.

 

[wdolson]

This is a Ponzi scheme, paying the people who bought in early with money from those who come in later. And it's still not PRODUCING anything. A car company creates value by building cars. A tractor company creates value by building tractors. A farmer creates value by growing food. Ethereum (and other cryptos) only create more crypto by their so-called "mining" operations. Crypto boosters berate governments for printing money, but brag about their "miners" creating more crypto.

Remember, when a company pays interest on its bonds, it does so by using the borrowed money to buy tools or supplies or to build production capacity so that it can create real value (e.g. cars, tractors, food, etc.). Ethereum is not investing your coins to produce anything; it's just giving you a share of the crypto being created out of nothing. It's a scam. And the only way to cash out that "interest" it's giving you is to find someone willing to pay you for it in "fiat" currency.

Because with a very few insignificant exceptions, you cannot buy any of the things you need for day-to-day life with crypto. You have to find a sucker who will give you "fiat" currency for your crypto. And yes, you don't actually have to find the sucker. The exchanges do that for you. But that sucker has to be out there. As soon as people quit buying the worthless digital "coins" the whole thing collapses.

And the very few merchants who will accept crypto, still set their prices in "fiat" currency, and adjust their exchange rate minute-by-minute, and cash out your crypto immediately, at a rate that's a loss for you. You're still really paying in fiat currency, but the merchant saves you the bother of going through the exchange to cash it out, by doing it for you, for a fee, in the form of an exchange rate that's unfavorable to you.

Crypto currencies are popular among those who believe in economic libertarianism. It is a libertarian currency independent of governments. Economic libertarianism sounds good on paper until you inject real humans into the mix.

Alan Greenspan was an economic libertarian. Back around 2000 an analyst saw what was happening with the mortgage derivative markets and he foresaw that some greedy people would jump in and bring the whole house of cards down if it wasn't regulated. He believed his data enough that he tracked down Greenspan to a restaurant he frequented and presented his data. Greenspan's response was that while what he saw was technically possible, nobody would be that irresponsible to take it to the extremes that would bring down the system.

Greenspan was wrong and the world's entire banking system almost collapsed in 2008 because the greedy people did exactly what the analyst foresaw.

Collectively humans need some kind of regulation or they will go sideways. A small group only made up of honest and conscientious people can self regulate and probably doesn't need outside regulation. As the group grows, the chances somebody who doesn't respect the informal rules of the community are going to get involved. They may be schemers who see an opportunity to game the system to their benefit, or they may be anti-social people who enjoy getting others riled up, or they may be something else that damages the community.

Some communities can regulate themselves, such as this forum. The forum has moderators who monitor and deal with behaviors that are outside the group's rules. There are more formal organizations that self regulate too. Medical doctors have medical boards who they have to answer to if they break the rules and lawyers have a code of ethics they need to follow with a disciplinary board that oversees wrong doing.

If a community can't or won't regulate itself, it's the government's job to do the regulating. Governments can over regulate and that is something that people in democracies need to put pressure on their governments to curb when it gets out of control. But because government regulate can be too much doesn't mean that all government regulation is bad. Just like taking an entire bottle of Tylenol is bad doesn't mean that taking one or two for a headache is bad. Taking a safe dose when you need it is beneficial.

The lack of regulation in the crypto world has led to problems with more probably coming in the next year or two. A few links about scandals
The Biggest Cryptocurrency Scandal in History: Ruja Ignatova - Sanction Scanner

13 Biggest Crypto Scandals and Controversial Stories of 2022

The 10 biggest scandals that rocked the Blockchain world

Crypto is also used a lot by criminals for both extortion and for exchanges among themselves.

Governments took over managing currencies because a government can regulate and manage their currency. In a democracy, the people have an indirect say in how it's managed through elections as well as speaking up to their representatives when something is happening they don't like.

Philosophically I understand libertarianism and I am in favor of no regulation or self regulation whenever possible. But if a community has the potential to do real harm to others, or is doing real harm to others and they are either unwilling or unable to self regulate effectively, the job falls to the government. When nobody is getting harmed and nobody is at any real risk of harm, no regulation is required.

 

[heltok]

This is a Ponzi scheme, paying the people who bought in early with money from those who come in later. And it's still not PRODUCING anything. A car company creates value by building cars. A tractor company creates value by building tractors. A farmer creates value by growing food. Ethereum (and other cryptos) only create more crypto by their so-called "mining" operations.

They create value through allowing people to transact and complex contracts to execute. Same as VISA etc, crypto charges a fee for transactions that is paid to the miners/stakers, people choose to pay this fee because they get more value from the transaction than the fee.

Given that Bitcoin has gone from 0 to $30k, yes the people who bought in early has made a profit. But some people have lost money buying when it was higher than today. Same as for Tesla. That doesn't make Bitcoin/Tesla a ponzi, it's just investing/speculation.

 

[heltok]

The lack of regulation in the crypto world has led to problems with more probably coming in the next year or two. A few links about scandals
The Biggest Cryptocurrency Scandal in History: Ruja Ignatova - Sanction Scanner

Onecoin was never a cryptocurrency. It was a pure scam that used some of the attention to crypto to scam people who didn't understand what a cryptocurrency was. There have been plenty of scams performed with USD also thanks to the lack of regulation of paper dollars transactions. Still the dollar is here.

I remember Onecoin well, had a few friends who fell for it. Many where the types who would argue against crypto with bad understanding and when Bitcoin did well they choose to invest into Onecoin to get their revenge. Not unlike people who were criticising Tesla and later decided to invest into Nikola. Not sure how to regulate people stupid, maybe at least make it harder for these people to invest money they don't have...

 

[wdolson]

Onecoin was never a cryptocurrency. It was a pure scam that used some of the attention to crypto to scam people who didn't understand what a cryptocurrency was. There have been plenty of scams performed with USD also thanks to the lack of regulation of paper dollars transactions. Still the dollar is here.

I remember Onecoin well, had a few friends who fell for it. Many where the types who would argue against crypto with bad understanding and when Bitcoin did well they choose to invest into Onecoin to get their revenge. Not unlike people who were criticising Tesla and later decided to invest into Nikola. Not sure how to regulate people stupid, maybe at least make it harder for these people to invest money they don't have...

The US Secret Service was created to stop counterfeiters and they are one of the most successful law enforcement agencies in the US. They stop most counterfeit currency before it reaches circulation.

A lot of scams have involved dollars, but counterfeiting is the closest analogy to a fake cryptocurrency scam. The US has a very good regulatory system to ensure all the paper dollars in circulation are genuine. There is no such safeguard for crypto.

 

[heltok]

The US Secret Service was created to stop counterfeiters and they are one of the most successful law enforcement agencies in the US. They stop most counterfeit currency before it reaches circulation.

A lot of scams have involved dollars, but counterfeiting is the closest analogy to a fake cryptocurrency scam. The US has a very good regulatory system to ensure all the paper dollars in circulation are genuine. There is no such safeguard for crypto.

Counterfeit in crypto is called double spend.

Double-spending - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bitcoin's main innovation was solving the double spend problem, thus creating the first scarce digital token.

The dollar is vulnerable to this. For example:

Superdollar - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Euro also:

Italy seizes 556,000 euros in fake coins minted in China

Italian police on Friday seized 556,000 euros ($692,000) in fake euro coins minted in China from a ship container in the port city of Naples, investigators said.

www.reuters.com

If you take some time to visit the darknet sites you will see plenty of dealers selling fake dollars with hundreds of customers writing reviews of how successful they were passing them off, some cheaper fakes were harder to use while some of the more expensive fakes have better success rate. Whenever you accept paper dollars there is a risk that they are fake.

Meanwhile Bitcoin has a known supply and Ethereum has a falling supply. I know which one I believe has the highest chance of counterfeits and future inflation.

 

[daniel]

Crypto currencies are popular among those who believe in economic libertarianism. It is a libertarian currency independent of governments. Economic libertarianism sounds good on paper until you inject real humans into the mix.

Alan Greenspan was an economic libertarian. Back around 2000 an analyst saw what was happening with the mortgage derivative markets and he foresaw that some greedy people would jump in and bring the whole house of cards down if it wasn't regulated. He believed his data enough that he tracked down Greenspan to a restaurant he frequented and presented his data. Greenspan's response was that while what he saw was technically possible, nobody would be that irresponsible to take it to the extremes that would bring down the system.

Greenspan was wrong and the world's entire banking system almost collapsed in 2008 because the greedy people did exactly what the analyst foresaw.

Collectively humans need some kind of regulation or they will go sideways. A small group only made up of honest and conscientious people can self regulate and probably doesn't need outside regulation. As the group grows, the chances somebody who doesn't respect the informal rules of the community are going to get involved. They may be schemers who see an opportunity to game the system to their benefit, or they may be anti-social people who enjoy getting others riled up, or they may be something else that damages the community.

Some communities can regulate themselves, such as this forum. The forum has moderators who monitor and deal with behaviors that are outside the group's rules. There are more formal organizations that self regulate too. Medical doctors have medical boards who they have to answer to if they break the rules and lawyers have a code of ethics they need to follow with a disciplinary board that oversees wrong doing.

If a community can't or won't regulate itself, it's the government's job to do the regulating. Governments can over regulate and that is something that people in democracies need to put pressure on their governments to curb when it gets out of control. But because government regulate can be too much doesn't mean that all government regulation is bad. Just like taking an entire bottle of Tylenol is bad doesn't mean that taking one or two for a headache is bad. Taking a safe dose when you need it is beneficial.

The lack of regulation in the crypto world has led to problems with more probably coming in the next year or two. A few links about scandals
The Biggest Cryptocurrency Scandal in History: Ruja Ignatova - Sanction Scanner

13 Biggest Crypto Scandals and Controversial Stories of 2022

The 10 biggest scandals that rocked the Blockchain world

Crypto is also used a lot by criminals for both extortion and for exchanges among themselves.

Governments took over managing currencies because a government can regulate and manage their currency. In a democracy, the people have an indirect say in how it's managed through elections as well as speaking up to their representatives when something is happening they don't like.

Philosophically I understand libertarianism and I am in favor of no regulation or self regulation whenever possible. But if a community has the potential to do real harm to others, or is doing real harm to others and they are either unwilling or unable to self regulate effectively, the job falls to the government. When nobody is getting harmed and nobody is at any real risk of harm, no regulation is required.

Economic regulation actually has two entirely separate aspects, both necessary:

Law enforcement, when it works, regulates individual behavior. When it fails it's often because legislators, influenced by business lobbyists, tie regulators' hands. When it succeeds it stops things like insider trading and reckless behavior by bankers, etc.

I was actually talking about regulating the money supply. A modern economic system needs a currency as a medium of exchange to allow people and businesses to buy, sell, invest, and borrow. Workers need to be paid and they need to buy stuff. Businesses need to buy equipment and raw materials, for which they often need to borrow capital, and they need to sell their products. For a currency to function as a medium of exchange there needs to be the right amount of it in circulation.

This is something the pseudo-economists who boost crypto fail to understand: For a currency to function as a medium of exchange there needs to be the right amount of it in circulation. Not so much that its value falls; not so little that there's not enough available to mediate all the exchanges that need to happen. One of the principal causes of the Great Depression was the gold standard: The supply of gold is just how much gold there is. Miners are constantly digging more of it out of the ground, but the supply is unregulated. Crypto is unregulated: The supply is either fixed by the algorithm or changes with "mining" activity, but there is no person or government or collective actively matching the supply to the needs of the economy. Crypto boosters just don't get this: We need a regulated supply of money.

In addition, for a currency to function as a medium of exchange, its value needs to be relatively stable. Crypto fails spectacularly in this. So-called "stable coins" attempt to peg their value to the dollar or to another fiat currency, but in the long run they always fail.

The result of all the above is that crypto, including the granddaddy of all crypto, Bitcoin, ends up being 99% hoarded in the hopes that it will rise in value. That's the mantra of so many boosters: Hold On for Dear Life. Don't spend it. Don't cash out for real money. Just hold on and you'll get rich when the price rises. (Except when it doesn't and people lose their shirt.) Currency has to circulate or it's not currency. Cryptocurrency is not currency because most of it is being hoarded, not circulated.

 

[ChooseFreedom]

Crypto currencies are popular among those who believe in economic libertarianism. It is a libertarian currency independent of governments. Economic libertarianism sounds good on paper until you inject real humans into the mix.

Alan Greenspan was an economic libertarian. Back around 2000 an analyst saw what was happening with the mortgage derivative markets and he foresaw that some greedy people would jump in and bring the whole house of cards down if it wasn't regulated. He believed his data enough that he tracked down Greenspan to a restaurant he frequented and presented his data. Greenspan's response was that while what he saw was technically possible, nobody would be that irresponsible to take it to the extremes that would bring down the system.

Greenspan was wrong and the world's entire banking system almost collapsed in 2008 because the greedy people did exactly what the analyst foresaw.

Collectively humans need some kind of regulation or they will go sideways. A small group only made up of honest and conscientious people can self regulate and probably doesn't need outside regulation. As the group grows, the chances somebody who doesn't respect the informal rules of the community are going to get involved. They may be schemers who see an opportunity to game the system to their benefit, or they may be anti-social people who enjoy getting others riled up, or they may be something else that damages the community.

Some communities can regulate themselves, such as this forum. The forum has moderators who monitor and deal with behaviors that are outside the group's rules. There are more formal organizations that self regulate too. Medical doctors have medical boards who they have to answer to if they break the rules and lawyers have a code of ethics they need to follow with a disciplinary board that oversees wrong doing.

If a community can't or won't regulate itself, it's the government's job to do the regulating. Governments can over regulate and that is something that people in democracies need to put pressure on their governments to curb when it gets out of control. But because government regulate can be too much doesn't mean that all government regulation is bad. Just like taking an entire bottle of Tylenol is bad doesn't mean that taking one or two for a headache is bad. Taking a safe dose when you need it is beneficial.

The lack of regulation in the crypto world has led to problems with more probably coming in the next year or two. A few links about scandals
The Biggest Cryptocurrency Scandal in History: Ruja Ignatova - Sanction Scanner

13 Biggest Crypto Scandals and Controversial Stories of 2022

The 10 biggest scandals that rocked the Blockchain world

Crypto is also used a lot by criminals for both extortion and for exchanges among themselves.

Governments took over managing currencies because a government can regulate and manage their currency. In a democracy, the people have an indirect say in how it's managed through elections as well as speaking up to their representatives when something is happening they don't like.

Philosophically I understand libertarianism and I am in favor of no regulation or self regulation whenever possible. But if a community has the potential to do real harm to others, or is doing real harm to others and they are either unwilling or unable to self regulate effectively, the job falls to the government. When nobody is getting harmed and nobody is at any real risk of harm, no regulation is required.

Where to start:
First off, I might as well add this to my signature - Bitcoin is separate from all other "crypto". (ask the USG)
Every other crypto is basically a digital version of modern day banks, except they aren't properly regulated yet. STAY AWAY!
Every single one of those scandals you source is from that side of crypto. Or a trading exchange that scammed its customers. Some elite few trying to use a new tech to get rich. No different than Bernie Madoff.

Bitcoin is its own asset class. It's a new form of money.
The differences are what make it the best version of money to ever exist.
1) It's more secure than banks. Open 24/7. Waaay cheaper to use.
2) Anyone can use it. Literally anyone. You don't even need the internet. Because it's just math.
3) It cannot be counterfeited or duplicated. The supply is fixed. There will never be more than 21 million, ever.
Which makes it deflationary. That would fix the inflation problem forever.
4) It's easily divided. (unlike gold)
5) It's easily and safely transported. (unlike gold)
6) It cannot be shut down, manipulated, or threatened. (ask China) There is no company behind Bitcoin. No CEO, no board of directors.
7) Criminal activity using Bitcoin has been proven to be overstated.
First, every transaction on Bitcoin's block-chain is visible to anyone. Not exactly the best way to do criminal activity. And many have already been caught!
Second, USD is used exponentially more than Bitcoin, and always will be.
8) It's APOLITICAL! This one seems to be difficult for some to grasp. But Bitcoin is simply a protocol, a mathematical equation to fix money. It was created because of the 2008 crisis. It's open source, honest, computer code that anyone can see.

The Federal Reserve was created in 1913. The USG gave them the ability to print money and set interest rates.
The Fed is NOT a government agency. It's a private entity that the USG borrows from. The USG owes Billions to the Fed in debt.
Guess how many times this private company that prints our USD's has been audited in its history. NEVER! That's absurd.
But you blindly believe they know what they're doing. And you've probably benefitted greatly from this current system, so of course you're going to defend it. I'm just saying that there's a better way. Better for all of humanity, but maybe not better for you individually.

Your argument about politics and government being more capable of properly handling the money, HA, that's just hilarious. For the majority of the world, it's not working out. And they are starting to show these governments that they don't need their regulations and oversights. And they don't need banks and their fees and regulations either.
Why do you think many governments have developed/are developing CBDC's? They know the future of money is digital, and they've all seen that the best version is Bitcoin and they're all trying to copy it. Except theirs will be controlled by them. If they control our money, they control us! (see China)
It's already happening, slowly, but it is happening. And will continue to grow, regardless of political affiliations.
It's not a left vs right, red vs blue issue. It's a top vs bottom issue. The current financial system favors the ones at the top and hinders the ones at the bottom. Bitcoin is the opposite. It's a bottom-up system, and that scares the *sugar* out of those at the top. So they're going to do everything they can to hold on to their power and influence. They won't share it without a fight.

We as the citizens, have to show them we want more. But they aren't just going to hand it over.
We needed a way to take back the power without force. Bitcoin is the way!

 

[ChooseFreedom]

Just to pick one line out of the ridiculous nonsense above:

Bitcoin is not free to use: It uses a flock-ton of electricity to process each transaction and a gazillion times that much to "mine" new "coins." Right now, the miners are using their profits to subsidize the transaction costs, but once the yield on "mining" drops too far (because of the limited number of coins available) that cost will have to be paid by the users. And it will be significant.

Bitcoin CONSTANTLY inflates and deflates, which is to say its value is wildly erratic, due to the thing boosters love about it: Lack of regulation. The thing they love is the thing that makes it useless as a medium of exchange.

Bitcoin not only CAN be manipulated, but it IS manipulated constantly as people hype it to get people who don't know any better to buy into it. (Which, BTW, they do, not by promising a "better" currency, but by promising huge profits when, presumably, the price goes up and they can sell it.) Bitcoin is manipulated the same way volatile stocks are manipulated.

I'll grant you that Bitcoin cannot be counterfeited, but it can easily be lost, and when lost it cannot be recovered. If a person succumbs to a scam and sends their BTC to a scammer, there's ZERO hope of getting it back.

The only uses for crypto are speculation (i.e. gambling) and keeping criminal activity under the radar.

There is no difference between transaction energy and mining energy. It's the same thing, not additional.

Instead of just saying, Bitcoin uses electricity, why not think a bit bigger.
How about comparing all the worlds banks usage of electricity vs the fraction of that used by mining Bitcoin.
Oh, and over HALF of the current energy usage of mining worldwide is from renewable sources. Definitely can't say that about banks.
People pick and choose headlines and just run with that ignorance.

Energy companies have to constantly produce enough power for peak needs. Even when it's not peak time. So what happens to all that energy they produce that isn't used? It's wasted, gone, cannot be saved.
Bitcoin mining is an extremely competitive business. That's good for everyone! They seek out places with the cheapest power. That means they go to places most other companies can't and set up to buy all that energy that would otherwise be wasted.
So, yes it uses energy, but it's the type of energy that gets skipped over in all these hit piece articles that just want to paint the negative of mining.

Look back in history. No growth of any civilization occurs without using massive amounts of energy! We need to use energy. But it's the kind of energy that is important. That's what the oil companies, the coal companies, the gas companies all don't want us to see.

And your confusion of price fluctuations with economic inflation is a bit scary. You have to know those aren't the same thing, right?
As for market manipulations, that happens in every single market. It's not exclusive to Bitcoin.
And that's not manipulating the Bitcoin protocol. If the standard of money was Bitcoin, these manipulations wouldn't exist and the price would stabilize. For now, Bitcoin has a link to the current financial system, so the price in the market does change.
But the value is not the price. 1 BTC = 1 BTC
The price is irrelevant. It take a shift in thinking to understand this. Took me awhile.

Bitcoin is no different than cash in it's ability to be "lost". People are scammed out of the money every day. That's on them.
But Bitcoin far more secure than cash, as I can memorize a 12-24 word key phrase and have access to my bitcoin from anywhere.
No bank needed, no wallet needed. Nothing the "steal". So keep your seed phrase secure and you're good.

 

[Knightshade]

The Federal Reserve was created in 1913.

There's a lot of flat out untrue stuff below here... but I'll just hit the lowest hanging fruit-bold added where relevant.

The Fed is NOT a government agency.

Who owns the Federal Reserve?

The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC.

www.federalreserve.gov

The Board of Governors in Washington, D.C., is an agency of the federal government and reports to and is directly accountable to the Congress. Board members are appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate

It's a private entity

Same link as above-

Some observers mistakenly consider the Federal Reserve to be a private entity because the Reserve Banks are organized similarly to private corporations. For instance, each of the 12 Reserve Banks operates within its own particular geographic area, or District, of the United States, and each is separately incorporated and has its own board of directors. Commercial banks that are members of the Federal Reserve System hold stock in their District's Reserve Bank. However, owning Reserve Bank stock is quite different from owning stock in a private company. The Reserve Banks are not operated for profit, and ownership of a certain amount of stock is, by law, a condition of membership in the System. In fact, the Reserve Banks are required by law to transfer net earnings to the U.S. Treasury

Guess how many times this private company that prints our USD's has been audited in its history. NEVER! That's absurd.

It IS absurd.

It's also grossly false.

Does the Federal Reserve ever get audited?

The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC.

www.federalreserve.gov

Does the Federal Reserve ever get audited?

Yes, the Board of Governors, the 12 Federal Reserve Banks, and the Federal Reserve System as a whole are all subject to several levels of audit and review:

it then goes on to list all those audits and reviews you claim have never happened in all of history yet happen annually.

In fact they have an entire page that is JUST the audit reports for you to view-- the ones you claim never happened in all of history.

The Fed - Audit

The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC.

www.federalreserve.gov

Here's one of the relevant links there:

Federal Reserve System Audited Annual Financial Statements

The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC.

www.federalreserve.gov

Federal Reserve System Audited Annual Financial Statements

Annual seems somewhat different from "NEVER IN HISTORY" but perhaps you can explain this.

Instead of just saying, Bitcoin uses electricity, why not think a bit bigger.
How about comparing all the worlds banks usage of electricity vs the fraction of that used by mining Bitcoin.

That would be dumb, because the volume of money is VASTLY larger among those banks.

If you went by kw per dollar you'd notice what an insane energy waste BTC is compared to actual money banking.

Energy companies have to constantly produce enough power for peak needs. Even when it's not peak time. So what happens to all that energy they produce that isn't used? It's wasted, gone, cannot be saved.

If only some tech company could invent a thing that, I dunno, STORES electricity to use at another time. That'd be pretty cool.

Bitcoin is no different than cash in it's ability to be "lost". People are scammed out of the money every day.

Except this is grossly false.

If someone transfers $ out of my bank account without my permission, I get 100% of it refunded to me.

If I intentionally transfer $ out of my bank account to someone to buy something, and the thing I'm buying is a fraud- I AGAIN have a way to get my $ back.

Credit cards add another layer of protection for spending of actual money on top of that in both directions too.

Vs with BTC, where if someone gets my key and transfers BTC away from me without my permission it's gone and there is no recourse at all

Likewise if I intentionally transfer BTC to someone else to buy something, and the thing I'm buying is a fraud- it's gone and there is no recourse at all


BTC is objectively inferior to actual money for fraud protection (and lots of other ways of course)[/b]

 

[ChooseFreedom]

There's a lot of flat out untrue stuff below here... but I'll just hit the lowest hanging fruit-bold added where relevant.

Who owns the Federal Reserve?

The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC.

www.federalreserve.gov

Same link as above-






It IS absurd.

It's also grossly false.

Does the Federal Reserve ever get audited?

The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC.

www.federalreserve.gov

it then goes on to list all those audits and reviews you claim have never happened in all of history yet happen annually.

In fact they have an entire page that is JUST the audit reports for you to view-- the ones you claim never happened in all of history.

The Fed - Audit

The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC.

www.federalreserve.gov

Here's one of the relevant links there:

Federal Reserve System Audited Annual Financial Statements

The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC.

www.federalreserve.gov

Annual seems somewhat different from "NEVER IN HISTORY" but perhaps you can explain this.




That would be dumb, because the volume of money is VASTLY larger among those banks.

If you went by kw per dollar you'd notice what an insane energy waste BTC is compared to actual money banking.



If only some tech company could invent a thing that, I dunno, STORES electricity to use at another time. That'd be pretty cool.




Except this is grossly false.

If someone transfers $ out of my bank account without my permission, I get 100% of it refunded to me.

If I intentionally transfer $ out of my bank account to someone to buy something, and the thing I'm buying is a fraud- I AGAIN have a way to get my $ back.

Credit cards add another layer of protection for spending of actual money on top of that in both directions too.

Vs with BTC, where if someone gets my key and transfers BTC away from me without my permission it's gone and there is no recourse at all

Likewise if I intentionally transfer BTC to someone else to buy something, and the thing I'm buying is a fraud- it's gone and there is no recourse at all


BTC is objectively inferior to actual money for fraud protection (and lots of other ways of course)[/b]

Thank you for correcting me on the auditing. I was obviously mistaken.
Looks like a bit of a shell game. The Board of Governors are considered gov employees, but the network of banks aren't.

As for the energy use, what difference does the volume of money make? Money has gone digital.
If the Fed has it's way, and it probably will, they're going to all but eliminate the small and mid-level brick and mortar banks once they launch their CBDC . There just won't be a need for them with a digital currency. The Fed will be able to control the flow of every dollar in the system. If they want to crank up the economy, they could put an expiration date on your dollars. Spend them or lose them. If you peacefully, publicly, protest one of their decisions and they find out, they could shut down your account.
Where does it end? They cannot be allowed to do it. Our privacy and property rights must be protected! Otherwise, how can you call this country the land of the free anymore? What are we "free" to do? It's an illusion.

Battery R&D has been grossly under-developed until fairly recently, maybe the last 25 yrs. Before cell phones, there just wasn't much incentive. If you're trying to say that power companies can store energy, it's a drop in the bucket to what they have to produce.
And storing it at their facilities doesn't do much good. The entire system as a whole is just ridiculously inefficient. A large portion of the energy is just lost in transit. The farther it has to travel, the more is lost.

You cannot overlook the "why".
Why does Bitcoin use energy? Because for it to be a secure system, that wouldn't be hacked or manipulated, it needed to have a built in cost, a proof of work. Think of a combination lock. Difficult to figure out w/o the right combo, but easy to validate once you have it.
If the Fed was forced to show proof of work (who's paying, where it's going) every time they cranked up the money printer, I guarantee they would do it much less. The Bitcoin block-chain is open source, meaning everyone can see the transactions but they can't change them because it would cost too much to take over half the system and change the ledger. Not to mention, everyone could see who's trying to do it.

Our banks and CC companies get rich charging us all fees and other expenses to be able to cover the fraud claims. (which aren't guaranteed BTW, you may still be asked to prove it)
It's simply a transfer of trust. In a world on the Bitcoin Standard, more local small businesses could actually compete and stay open. So we could start taking our business to those folks we know and trust. Getting back to how it was decades ago where having a dream of owning a business, however small, was actually possible. And you don't have as much of a risk of fraud because you know them. They're in your community.

The current system is nothing close to the free market we used to have. It's all just global corporations, cost cutting margins and not paying their workers, and using politics to get laws passed that allow them the squeeze out the little guys, so they can appease their stockholders and get big CEO bonuses. It's sickening, and I want it to change.
There is no other way to change that without first fundamentally fixing the money and how it's used. Change at the base level.
It's going to be a long, painful process, no doubt. But it must happen. Otherwise, we're going down, a la the Roman Empire, and every other civilization that thought they could do it better. History repeating itself.

 

[daniel]

Where to start:
First off, I might as well add this to my signature - Bitcoin is separate from all other "crypto". (ask the USG)

The people who promote those other cryptocurrencies would disagree violently with you. In fact, every cryptocurrency is an algorithm on a blockchain. Each is a little different in its own way, but Bitcoin is not fundamentally different from many of them.

Bitcoin is its own asset class. It's a new form of money.
The differences are what make it the best version of money to ever exist.
1) It's more secure than banks. Open 24/7. Waaay cheaper to use.

Each digital transaction of Bitcoin is HUGELY more expensive than a similar transaction in dollars. Right now, the "miners" are paying for it. They won't keep paying forever because the supply of new coins for them to mine will dry up and they'll either close up shop or start charging the actual (exorbitant!) transaction cost to the customers.

2) Anyone can use it. Literally anyone. You don't even need the internet. Because it's just math.

I'd like to see you explain how someone without access to the internet could buy, spend, accept, or cash out of Bitcoin, or any other crypto. Crypto is blockchain on the internet. You need to access the internet to use it.

3) It cannot be counterfeited or duplicated. The supply is fixed. There will never be more than 21 million, ever.
Which makes it deflationary. That would fix the inflation problem forever.

And the fixed, deflationary nature of it is precisely why it's useless as currency. Deflation was why the Great Depression crashed the economy.

4) It's easily divided. (unlike gold)
5) It's easily and safely transported. (unlike gold)

True.

6) It cannot be shut down, manipulated, or threatened. (ask China) There is no company behind Bitcoin. No CEO, no board of directors.

Talk to the people who got wiped out when SBF stole all their Bitcoin.

 

[Knightshade]

As for the energy use, what difference does the volume of money make? Money has gone digital.

...is that a serious question?

Pretty obviously if it takes say (using generic figures here) 100 watts of power to move $1 in value with BTC, and it takes 200 watts of power to move $1,000 in value using actual money, then banks win the energy use race pretty handily.

The cost to do huge #s of transactions is vastly lower for real banking than for BTC transacting (and indeed more fundamentally-- the real banking system CAN do massive #s almost instantly... BTC physically can not by design. It scales badly.

There's been lots of proposed forks to "fix" the bad scalability issue--- and workarounds like the lightning network, but it's still orders of magnitude worse than real modern digital banking in capacity, speed, cost, and scalability.

If the Fed has it's way, and it probably will, they're going to all but eliminate the small and mid-level brick and mortar banks once they launch their CBDC . There just won't be a need for them with a digital currency

You appear to read (and believe) a lot of misinformation about the Fed my dude.

A CBDC is a thing the fed has discussed, but have taken no steps to actually create or implement. They don’t even have the ability or authority to create one without congress passing a law authorizing it. (this, too, is gone into detail in their FAQs-- which I think you could benefit a lot from reading)

A bunch of cryptobros mistakenly claimed FedNow was the first step in getting a CBDC rolling, but once again they had no idea how actual banking or money work and were 100% wrong.

. The Fed will be able to control the flow of every dollar in the system. If they want to crank up the economy, they could put an expiration date on your dollars. Spend them or lose them. If you peacefully, publicly, protest one of their decisions and they find out, they could shut down your account.

Again you appear to be making up magic powers the fed does not actually have.

They cannot be allowed to do it.

Good news! They aren't allowed to do any of that!

Battery R&D has been grossly under-developed until fairly recently, maybe the last 25 yrs. Before cell phones, there just wasn't much incentive. If you're trying to say that power companies can store energy, it's a drop in the bucket to what they have to produce.
And storing it at their facilities doesn't do much good.

Don't read the news much I guess?

Massive #s of peaker coal plants have been shut down in recent years specifically by battery energy storage and distribution.

A lot of it using batteries from Tesla.

And they've got an existing (fairly new) megafactory ramping up to make a ton more, and another one recently announced to be built. That's apart from the huge # of megapack type storage being built by various chinese cell makers and others.


The entire system as a whole is just ridiculously inefficient. A large portion of the energy is just lost in transit. The farther it has to travel, the more is lost.

You cannot overlook the "why".
Why does Bitcoin use energy? Because for it to be a secure system, that wouldn't be hacked or manipulated, it needed to have a built in cost, a proof of work. Think of a combination lock. Difficult to figure out w/o the right combo, but easy to validate once you have it.

Yes- the fact it's hard and slow and expensive to transact is intentional.

And makes it really bad at being actual currency because all of those things are the opposite of what you want in a currency.

The Bitcoin block-chain is open source, meaning everyone can see the transactions but they can't change them because it would cost too much to take over half the system and change the ledger. Not to mention, everyone could see who's trying to do it.

Which is why you're SOL if you're the victim of fraud and paid in bitcoin. It's just gone man.

But if someone defrauds me with real money I just call my bank or credit card company and they instantly credit it back to my account.

Our banks and CC companies get rich charging us all fees and other expenses to be able to cover the fraud claims.

I mean, people really bad with money management pay a lot of fees.... it'd be great if high schools taught basic money management skills... but rich people love dumb people so good luck getting that to happen!

(which aren't guaranteed BTW, you may still be asked to prove it)

I mean--- even if you did, "get your $ back with proof of fraud" is infinitely better than BTCs "If victim of fraud, your $ is just gone- no recourse" option.

The current system is nothing close to the free market we used to have

The free market as you seem to imagine it never really existed though.

You don't think super rich people running big companies weren't doing horrible things to their workers BEFORE 1913 or something?

Generally the stuff they did before then was FAR worse (in the US anyway)

. It's sickening, and I want it to change.

Very noble- but bitcoin ain't gonna do any of that. It's a terrible substitute for actual money, and a fair % of your arguments in its favor were based on things that aren't actually true, or things you haven't really thought out (like how you get useful transaction speeds if it needed to transact the # of times a second real banks do).

Otherwise, we're going down, a la the Roman Empire, and every other civilization that thought they could do it better. History repeating itself.

It always does.

"this time it's different" is a punchline, not a plan.