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#1,521
MSMike said:
I have a Coinbase Visa card that works just like a Visa because it is. But it converts crypto to dollars for retail transactions.
Click to expand...

So you're saying you need to have an extra conversion to real money in order to effectively use crypto as money?

So... like normal money but with extra steps :)

Also what kinda rewards do you get for spending on that Visa? Because depending what you're buying, if you START with real actual money you can get 5-10% or more back on your spending (or even higher for some travel use of the rewards).


EDIT- I looked it up.

Actually looks like your visa has a LOT of restrictions compared to most normal ones.


For example max point of sale transaction is $2500. Per 24 hours.
Hope you're not buying anything expensive...like...ever...

Also- it's a pre-paid debit card, legally... the terms specifically call out it's NOT a credit card. Which means you don't get many of the consumer protections a credit card offers.

You also don't get many of the ancillary benefits of a real credit card (extended warranty, purchase or return protections, travel insurance, rental car insurance, etc)

Also- while there's technically no "fee" to convert your crypto to US dollars... there kind of is
Coinbase said:
Spending with the Coinbase Card has no transaction fees.

Coinbase does include a spread in the price to buy or sell cryptocurrencies.
Click to expand...

They pocket that spread each time you use the card. Versus a real credit card where you charge X dollars and it costs you only X dollars-- no spread to lose on.


And rewards-wise it kinda sucks too...
 
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#1,523
LOL
That's okay. Straw man arguments don't change reality. So happy I have great gains in BTC and ETH. Guess I'll use my Coinbase Visa to keep the economy humming. How do shorters keep track of their lies? Stay dry.
 
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#1,524
MSMike said:
LOL
That's okay. Straw man arguments don't change reality.
Click to expand...

Then why keep making them?

Confederate dollars? LOL as the kids say.

Note you didn't have much to say when I pointed out all the actual, from-their-own-terms-of-use ways your Coinbase visa isn't actually "the same" as any other Visa. You seem long on hype and short on facts or reponses to facts-- which granted is the crypto MO.


MSMike said:
So happy I have great gains in BTC and ETH.
Click to expand...

I mean, BTC right now is down 36.04% from 12 months ago...

It IS up 183.5% over 5 years... similar story for ETH... (down 33.46% from 1 year ago, up 222.61% over 5 years....)

But then if you had instead made the smarter move investing in something that isn't imaginary and bought TSLA 5 years ago that is up 712.07% since then.

A lot better return without relying on greater fools to buy you out at the end.
 
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#1,526
MSMike said:
When Tesla made electric vehicles using laptop batteries there where many sceptical and the slizzy shorters went all in and lost billions.
Click to expand...

Nobody shorted Tesla because of the laptop batteries. The batteries were a proven, successful, and widely-available commodity. In fact, their wide availability from a large number of suppliers made them the ideal choice. People shorted Tesla because they disagreed with the majority of investors who expect Tesla to be successful. The shorters were people (a small minority of investors!) who expected Tesla to fail.

MSMike said:
... How do shorters keep track of their lies? Stay dry.
Click to expand...

I don't know why you keep bringing up shorters. Short-selling is another form of speculation. You can make or lose a ton of money short-selling, just as you can speculating on crypto. I would never engage in short-selling. It's a high-risk speculation.

Look, I've said that you can make (or lose) a bundle speculating on crypto, which is what you're doing. By your own admission, you're buying it because it's value is (for the time being) going up. That's the definition of speculation.

What we're pointing out is that crypto is an absolutely lousy form of currency. And when you use your Visa Coinbase card, you're not using crypto as currency. You're paying Coinbase to convert some crypto from your account into dollars to pay for what you buy. Dollars are the currency. They just make it more convenient for you by performing the conversion seamlessly (for a fee, in the form of a price spread -- that is, you get fewer dollars for your crypto than if you converted it yourself).

(Or euros or yen or pounds or whatever you national currency is, if you don't happen to live in the U.S.)
 
#1,527
daniel said:
Look, I've said that you can make (or lose) a bundle speculating on crypto, which is what you're doing. By your own admission, you're buying it because it's value is (for the time being) going up. That's the definition of speculation.
Click to expand...

speculation
/ˌspɛkjʊˈleɪʃn/

noun
noun: speculation; plural noun: speculations
1. the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.
"there has been widespread speculation that he plans to quit"
2. investment in stocks, property, etc. in the hope of gain but with the risk of loss.
"the company's move into property speculation"

Most investment are speculations. Bitcoin is a speculation, TSLA, USD treasury bonds, real estate, gold etc also... Some have higher probability of a large downside, some have higher probability of small downside, some have higher probability of a small upside, some have a higher probability of a large upside. But they are all speculation with some uncertainty of the future and they wouldn't be an investment if you didn't hope for some future gain and the future is uncertain so there always is a risk of loss.
 
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#1,528
heltok said:
speculation
/ˌspɛkjʊˈleɪʃn/

noun
noun: speculation; plural noun: speculations
1. the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.
"there has been widespread speculation that he plans to quit"
2. investment in stocks, property, etc. in the hope of gain but with the risk of loss.
"the company's move into property speculation"

Most investment are speculations. Bitcoin is a speculation, TSLA, USD treasury bonds, real estate, gold etc also... Some have higher probability of a large downside, some have higher probability of small downside, some have higher probability of a small upside, some have a higher probability of a large upside. But they are all speculation with some uncertainty of the future and they wouldn't be an investment if you didn't hope for some future gain and the future is uncertain so there always is a risk of loss.
Click to expand...

This is not true. Speculation is not defined by the presence of any small amount of risk. Speculation is trading on the short-term fluctuations in the price of a security or commodity, or buying a security whose success or failure is highly unknown. If you buy TSLA with the intention of profiting from short-term fluctuations in the market price, that's speculation. If you buy TSLA with the intention of holding for the long term because you believe the company will be successful and its price will rise due to growth of the company, that's investment. All investments carry some level of risk. That does not make them speculations.

Tesla builds cars (and other stuff), creating value from raw materials or components. If the company succeeds, its real value increases as it sells cars (and other stuff) for more than it cost to build them, and creates new plants to build even more. As the company grows, its stock will rise in value. The vagaries of the market create fluctuations, but in the long term the value of the company rises because it is creating commodities of value.

Crypto creates nothing. Its value is totally dependent on the speculative fever based in the "bigger fool" theory. It's only real uses are illegal transactions and speculation. Some legal transactions occur as well, but only because aficionados are willing to pay high exchange-rate fees. Such transactions are a very small part of crypto. Most crypto transactions are people buying and selling crypto, not using crypto to buy or sell anything other than "fiat" currency or illicit goods, from drugs to slaves, or paying/demanding ransom.
 
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#1,529
"Bitcoin, the Internet currency beloved by computer scientists, libertarians, and criminals, is no longer invulnerable. As recently as 3 years ago, it seemed that anyone could buy or sell anything with Bitcoin and never be tracked, let alone busted if they broke the law. "It's totally anonymous," was how one commenter put it in Bitcoin's forums in June 2013. "The FBI does not have a prayer of a chance of finding out who is who."


The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and other law enforcement begged to differ. Ross Ulbricht, the 31-year-old American who created Silk Road, a Bitcoin market facilitating the sale of $1 billion in illegal drugs, was sentenced to life in prison in February 2015. In March, the assets of 28-year-old Czech national Tomáš Jiříkovský were seized; he's suspected of laundering $40 million in stolen Bitcoins. Two more fell in September 2015: 33-year-old American Trendon Shavers pleaded guilty to running a $150 million Ponzi scheme—the first Bitcoin securities fraud case—and 30-year-old Frenchman Mark Karpelès was arrested and charged with fraud and embezzlement of $390 million from the now shuttered Bitcoin currency exchange Mt. Gox...................."
The quote from this article:

Science | AAAS

www.science.org www.science.org

So it seems bitcoin catches the crooks. Of course this has evolved a lot since this article. It is a new world and having an open mind to accept reality is not easy for some.
 
#1,531
MSMike said:
"Bitcoin, the Internet currency beloved by computer scientists, libertarians, and criminals, is no longer invulnerable. As recently as 3 years ago, it seemed that anyone could buy or sell anything with Bitcoin and never be tracked, let alone busted if they broke the law. "It's totally anonymous," was how one commenter put it in Bitcoin's forums in June 2013. "The FBI does not have a prayer of a chance of finding out who is who."


The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and other law enforcement begged to differ. Ross Ulbricht, the 31-year-old American who created Silk Road, a Bitcoin market facilitating the sale of $1 billion in illegal drugs, was sentenced to life in prison in February 2015. In March, the assets of 28-year-old Czech national Tomáš Jiříkovský were seized; he's suspected of laundering $40 million in stolen Bitcoins. Two more fell in September 2015: 33-year-old American Trendon Shavers pleaded guilty to running a $150 million Ponzi scheme—the first Bitcoin securities fraud case—and 30-year-old Frenchman Mark Karpelès was arrested and charged with fraud and embezzlement of $390 million from the now shuttered Bitcoin currency exchange Mt. Gox...................."
The quote from this article:

Science | AAAS

www.science.org www.science.org

So it seems bitcoin catches the crooks. Of course this has evolved a lot since this article. It is a new world and having an open mind to accept reality is not easy for some.
Click to expand...

No. Bitcoin doesn't catch the crooks. The FBI has caught a few big-time crooks who used bitcoin. But they don't go after the little crooks. Just the big ones. If you're buying or selling a few hundred, or even a few thousand dollars of drugs they're not even going to try to catch you. And to catch those big crooks was a huge cryptological undertaking. And they still never recover all the money. A few crooks get caught and sent to prison but the vast majority don't.

Crypto is not invulnerable. But it's far better than cash or bank transfers for criminals, which is why criminals favor it. You will never get a ransomeware hack demanding a bank transfer. They ALWAYS demand crypto.
 
#1,532
MSMike said:
Why did I mention shorts was asked?

decrypt.co

Investors Are Shorting Bitcoin, Ethereum in Record Numbers - Decrypt

Inflows into products that bet on the price of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies going down soared last week, CoinShares data shows.
decrypt.co decrypt.co

Same as when Tesla was shorted to the hilt. I wonder if naked shorting was also involved and banks perhaps?
Click to expand...
And ETH, BTC and others continue to climb rapidly. And yes, the anti crypto crowd should not bother with it. Like Peter Lynch has said invest in what you can understand. I am not here to argue philosophy as every one has their own biases. I find it curious how vehement some people are trying to prove something that isn't important to me or I already agree with. I find twitter has more informed people in this area.
I believe Tesla has bitcoin also and more than I do as a percentage of my investment funds.
I am happy having bought BTC at ~18k and now it's 26k (in 3 days from 20k to 26k or about +30%).
Nothing personal. This is just what I do and not advice as I am wrong in many areas but like to learn in a respectful manner.
 
#1,534
MSMike said:
And ETH, BTC and others continue to climb rapidly.
Click to expand...

Yes...BTC is only down 34.64% in the last 12 months now.... Which again still leaves an investor worse off than if they'd bought TSLA instead on the same date.


MSMike said:
. Like Peter Lynch has said invest in what you can understand
Click to expand...

That I understand crypto is why I don't invest in it.

Unlike folks who think it's useful as currency for example :)


MSMike said:
I believe Tesla has bitcoin also and more than I do as a percentage of my investment funds.
Click to expand...

Tesla originally invested less than 10% of their cash on hand in BTC, and has since sold most of it. As of Dec 31, 2022 they reporting only still holding 191 million dollars worth of the original 1.5 billion dollar purchase.

And like so many who dabbled in BTC in recent years, they are, thusfar, in the hole on their "investment". Even the recent surge you cite leaves them down to the tune of over 100 million dollars net. I think at roughly 36k BTC price they'd be back to just even on the whole fiasco.
 
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#1,535
Knightshade said:
Yes...BTC is only down 34.64% in the last 12 months now.... Which again still leaves an investor worse off than if they'd bought TSLA instead on the same date.




That I understand crypto is why I don't invest in it.

Unlike folks who think it's useful as currency for example :)




Tesla originally invested less than 10% of their cash on hand in BTC, and has since sold most of it. As of Dec 31, 2022 they reporting only still holding 191 million dollars worth of the original 1.5 billion dollar purchase.

And like so many who dabbled in BTC in recent years, they are, thusfar, in the hole on their "investment". Even the recent surge you cite leaves them down to the tune of over 100 million dollars net. I think at roughly 36k BTC price they'd be back to just even on the whole fiasco.
Click to expand...
Can you back up the source of holdings for both Tesla and Elon. For me I look forward for future prices. BTC was also at 400 and even cheaper in the past. More sustainable mining seems to have helped gas costs. I bought a Tesla buckle with DOGE in the past and still see items.
Did Elon sell any of his crypto?
 
#1,536
MSMike said:
Can you back up the source of holdings for both Tesla and Elon.
Click to expand...

Teslas holdings are in their quarterly public financial disclosures (and also widely reported on)-- it's surprising you claim to have been following this topic without being aware of this. For example:
www.theverge.com

Tesla’s bitcoin holdings suffered a $140 million net loss last year

The disclosure comes two years after the company announced it was buying $1.5 billion of the cryptocurrency.
www.theverge.com www.theverge.com

the company’s bitcoin investment resulted in a net loss of $140 million throughout the course of 2022...

...As of December 31st, 2022, Tesla says it held $191 million in bitcoin at fair market value
Click to expand...


I didn't say anything at all about Elons personal holdings so unsure why you'd ask for a source on something I never mentioned.


MSMike said:
For me I look forward for future prices
Click to expand...

I'm curious to see your financial thesis that has BTC doubling in price from here before TSLA does.
 
#1,537
Knightshade said:
Teslas holdings are in their quarterly public financial disclosures (and also widely reported on)-- it's surprising you claim to have been following this topic without being aware of this. For example:
www.theverge.com

Tesla’s bitcoin holdings suffered a $140 million net loss last year

The disclosure comes two years after the company announced it was buying $1.5 billion of the cryptocurrency.
www.theverge.com www.theverge.com




I didn't say anything at all about Elons personal holdings so unsure why you'd ask for a source on something I never mentioned.




I'm curious to see your financial thesis that has BTC doubling in price from here before TSLA does.
Click to expand...
It seems we have miscommunication. I don't think this is helpful. BTW the verge is not on my trusted source list. I was expecting a more recent source not the old one you posted. Where did I say it is doubling? Why did you ignore using DOGE as currency on the Tesla Store?
 
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