Bitcoin, Cryptocurrency and Blockchain Discussion Thread

[SN_8]

BTC is not a currency, and it never will. Do you buy pizzas and coffee with that?
Those who did regret it, as it cost them millions in unrealized gains. So no one will ever do that. I think that, right now, even very few Tesla will be bought with BTC.

Agreed. How much bandwidth on this forum is spent discouraging posters from selling TSLA outright to purchase cars, houses, etc? Do we really think it's any different on Bitcoin forums?

At some time it will be necessary for fed to increase interest rates and it will crash stock market, I believe.

Perhaps the answer to this is best suited for the crypto board, but why exactly do we think then that crypto is a hedge for inflation? I get that it has limited supply and isn't tied to the dollar, but as it becomes a mainstream investment, won't it crash right along with equities? Look what happened during the covid crash... BTC compared to SPY:

 

[Prunesquallor]

Any chance that Dojo (soon-to-be World's Largest Supercomputer) can use its spare CPU cycles to find all the remaining BITCOIN? How many are left to mine? What would they be worth at current valuations?

Cheers!

Max 21 million units. Current ~18 million units. 3 million units are currently worth $141 billion.

However, It seems Zeno's Dichotomy Paradox may be involved.

 

[aubreymcfato]

By that argument, TSLA (and all investment) is worthless - you will never sell because of lost unrealized gains. Better just to stay in cash.

The difference is volatility and probability of value appreciation. You hodl tsla right now because you think it will appreciate. Same with btc.

 

[OrthoSurg]

The difference is volatility and probability of value appreciation. You hodl tsla right now because you think it will appreciate. Same with btc.

There is another factor with TSLA.
You hope your investment will create stock appreciation so the company can do a stock offering and gather more cash to expand their world changing business for the greater good.

If BTC was reducing the number of banks, transportation, useless waste of human lives by replacing useless ledger work and reducing overall ressource consumptions, that would be for a greater good. But this remains yet to be proven or even possible.

 

[bkp_duke]

OT and feel free to delete or move... Not sure why no one has gotten a quantum computer, like D Wave, and used that to mine bitcoin. Would basically run the entire blockchain faster than any one else and at the current price of bitcoin would make it break even to profitable...

A far more efficient use of quantum computing in this realm would be to hack bitcoin wallets and take the funds. You laugh now about how preposterous that sounds, but when Quantum computers can be rented by the hour like normal servers are now, this will become a distinct possibility.

Having mined BTC for a long time, I can say this is the major weakness that everyone is ignoring. A major jump in technology could very easily leave the entire BTC system antiquated and highly vulnerable.

 

[ZeApelido]

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1360365048137277440?s=20

"A know a thing or two about payments"

Help me decode why he said "A" instead of "I"?

 

[cusetownusa]

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1360365048137277440?s=20

"A know a thing or two about payments"

Help me decode why he said "A" instead of "I"?

typo? I mean, a never make them but noticed some people do.

 

[Nocturnal]

Yup, I couldnt believe how stupid ARKs anaysis was. BTC uses less energy than the global banking system you say? wow how amazing. Lets compare the energy cost PER TRANSACTION shall we? Absolutely insulting to my intelligence that ark push this.
And also... sure, credit cards are slower than debit cards... but BTC is a debit card. BTC doesn't let you spend money you don't have, so comparing its process time to taking out a short term loan via a credit card makes no sense.

Also, amazingly the global banking system includes loans, mortgages, currency transactions and share dealing. BTC is supporting none of this. Also zero fraud checking, or money laundering checks. No 'lnow your customer' rules. Of course its a stupid, stupid comparison to make.

The mental gymnastics used by people who HAVE bitcoin to try and persuade other people to join the pyramid scheme is staggering. Dont even pretend to care about climate change while holding bitcoin, its absolutely hypocritical to do so. Tesla have lost a ton of respect imho by investing in btc.

I'm not seeing any data that disputes what they said here.

A far more efficient use of quantum computing in this realm would be to hack bitcoin wallets and take the funds. You laugh now about how preposterous that sounds, but when Quantum computers can be rented by the hour like normal servers are now, this will become a distinct possibility.

Having mined BTC for a long time, I can say this is the major weakness that everyone is ignoring. A major jump in technology could very easily leave the entire BTC system antiquated and highly vulnerable.

That applies to any of our financial systems though. Banks and government agencies are hacked all the time with our current generation of tech.

 

[bkp_duke]

I'm not seeing any data that disputes what they said here.


That applies to any of our financial systems though. Banks and government agencies are hacked all the time with our current generation of tech.

Not on a global scale. Sure, there are small, individual intrusions, but nothing fundamental to the entire system that puts everything at risk all at once.


I've mined 10s of millions of $$$ in BTC, and I did it for the profit. Obviously, I wish I held onto them and sold them now, instead of earlier.

But from a technical standpoint, there are some glaring holes in the BTC system. People want to gloss over them now b/c of the spike in BTC value, but those holes are none-the-less there, and they are system-wide.

 

[Nocturnal]

Not on a global scale. Sure, there are small, individual intrusions, but nothing fundamental to the entire system that puts everything at risk all at once.


I've mined 10s of millions of $$$ in BTC, and I did it for the profit. Obviously, I wish I held onto them and sold them now, instead of earlier.

But from a technical standpoint, there are some glaring holes in the BTC system. People want to gloss over them now b/c of the spike in BTC value, but those holes are none-the-less there, and they are system-wide.

I just don't see that as a credible risk. Quantum computing is a pipe dream at this point, and when it's not then why do we assume just one actor/faction would have that technology? As long as the entire network has more computing power (which will include huge financial institutions, governments etc.) then it's more or less safe right?

 

[bkp_duke]

I just don't see that as a credible risk. Quantum computing is a pipe dream at this point, and when it's not then why do we assume just one actor/faction would have that technology? As long as the entire network has more computing power (which will include huge financial institutions, governments etc.) then it's more or less safe right?

It's not just quantum computing. 51% attacks (we've seen these on lesser coins than BTC).

And then there is the entire "you are @#$% out of luck if you lose access to your wallet". My business partner lost a thumb drive 10 years ago with 200 BTC on it. To this day it is still missing, and he's torn his house upside down multiple times.

If I lose access to my bank account, there are mechanisms in place to prove my identity and get access back. With BTC, it's gone, FOREVER. That's a titanic-level design problem there.

I was the biggest BTC bull there was, when I owned BTC. After I divested from it, I believe I have a more objective view of the pros/cons of BTC. At least much more objective than when I was mining the stuff.

 

[Nocturnal]

It's not just quantum computing. 51% attacks (we've seen these on lesser coins than BTC).

And then there is the entire "you are @#$% out of luck if you lose access to your wallet". My business partner lost a thumb drive 10 years ago with 200 BTC on it. To this day it is still missing, and he's torn his house upside down multiple times.

If I lose access to my bank account, there are mechanisms in place to prove my identity and get access back. With BTC, it's gone, FOREVER. That's a titanic-level design problem there.

I was the biggest BTC bull there was, when I owned BTC. After I divested from it, I believe I have a more objective view of the pros/cons of BTC. At least much more objective than when I was mining the stuff.

I have two 1 ounce gold bars in my safe. I could lose those at any time. The cash I have on hand can be lost. No difference. And sure, you can get your checking account back but you realize you pay for that right? Our tax dollars go to subsidize and protect that entire system. And your bank is happy to take your cash and keep it safe in return for giving you .01% interest (while you lose 2,4,10% in spending value).

Of course none of this matters. BTC is here to stay and you can profit on it or not. Everything has pros and cons. The die hard anti-crypto people sound exactly like the die hard pro-crypto to me. It's a belief system.

 

[JRP3]

In my limited understanding using crypto for transactions makes no sense if you see it as an appreciating asset, (the 10,000 BTC pizza purchase being the most obvious example), so how could it be a viable currency until the value stabilizes?

 

[AudubonB]

There are those who are not die-hard on either side. I am, very sincerely, trying to embrace both the concept and the reality of a cryptocurrency, albeit not for mundane, quotidian goals like a hedge against inflation.
Rather, as I wrote some days ago, because it assists me in my attempts to envision a Martian currency, one unencumbered by all the ramifications of the near-Neanderthalic concept of a durable, fairly convenient substance that easily can be plucked from river beds and such and passed around within a society, or a paper chit that has evolved from representing that substance safely sitting in a vault to what we have today throughout the world.

However, in that the very existence of Bitcoin depends on, and as such firmly represents, not human effort either in work or in thought but rather - in the most brutal, literal sense of the word - an utterly mindless transformation of energy into a higher state of entropy, I cannot in my current state of understanding look favorably on Bitcoins & ilk....most especially not on Mars.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

Also, amazingly the global banking system includes loans, mortgages, currency transactions and share dealing. BTC is supporting none of this. Also zero fraud checking, or money laundering checks. No 'lnow your customer' rules. Of course its a stupid, stupid comparison to make.

The mental gymnastics used by people who HAVE bitcoin to try and persuade other people to join the pyramid scheme is staggering.

Many posts in this thread that are unfavorable of BitCoin only apply specifically to BitCoin and not cryptocurrency in general.

I already commented in an earlier post regarding BitCoin's energy usage and how many other cryptocurrencies avoid that entirely.

While BTC does not, there are several cryptocurrencies that fully support loans, mortgages, and interest. I currently have large sums of money drawing anywhere from 8-12% APR in cryptocurrency, and these cryptocurrencies I'm invested in are stablecoins that are not at the same risk of value loss as the more speculative coins like BitCoin.

All cryptocurrency exchanges (that operate legally anyway) have full Know Your Customer (KYC) rules, and require full proof of identify before you can trade.

The allegation that the cryptocurrency industry is a pyramid/ponzi scheme is unfounded. No one in cryptocurrency promises any returns, and no profits are paid for with new investors money, both of which are requirements to be labeled as a ponzi/pyramid scheme.

If you don't want to invest in cryptocurrency or feel it's not an investment vehicle for you, that's perfectly OK. But you should make such a judgment based on facts, and currently you are lacking such.

 

[heltok]

It's not just quantum computing. 51% attacks (we've seen these on lesser coins than BTC).

And then there is the entire "you are @#$% out of luck if you lose access to your wallet". My business partner lost a thumb drive 10 years ago with 200 BTC on it. To this day it is still missing, and he's torn his house upside down multiple times.

If I lose access to my bank account, there are mechanisms in place to prove my identity and get access back. With BTC, it's gone, FOREVER. That's a titanic-level design problem there.

I was the biggest BTC bull there was, when I owned BTC. After I divested from it, I believe I have a more objective view of the pros/cons of BTC. At least much more objective than when I was mining the stuff.

Bitcoin no workie because government will just 51% attack. I have heard this argument and I have refuted it many times.

First of all, it is not so trivial to just write a 10 billion dollar check and the next week have 51% of all hashing power. It takes a long time to scale up production and energy supply etc. Second it would be very hard to do politically, it would look very weird if for example Norway decided to do that, voters would think it was an unwise way to spend taxpayers money and make the country look bad. If China did it the backlash would be huge. Third even if they accomplished this, there are multiple ways to get around it, you could just ignore all blocks mined by the new miners or more likely bitcoin would just fork into bit-GOV-coin and bit-newalgorithm-coin where all those expensive asic-miners are now worthless. Maybe Bitcoin would be disrupted for a week, but no coins would be lost. And after that attack the network would be even more secure than before, Bitcoin is antifragile to attacks.

For minor coins it might be able to 51% attack them with a modern sized botnet, but not with Bitcoin. This is partly why Bitcoin has such a high value, because the probability of a successful attack happening is so low.

Maybe you were the biggest bull on bitcoin, but clearly you were not the biggest bull on Bitcoin...

 

[MC3OZ]

However, in that the very existence of Bitcoin depends on, and as such firmly represents, not human effort either in work or in thought but rather - in the most brutal, literal sense of the word - an utterly mindless transformation of energy into a higher state of entropy, I cannot in my current state of understanding look favorably on Bitcoins & ilk....most especially not on Mars.

That high energy usage is a required feature if Bitcoin, but not a required feature of Cryptocurrency or Blockchain.

There are also sorts of possible combinations where a combination of banking and crypto could be superior to current traditional banking and crypto.

I posted here on a Crypto based on gold Bitcoin, Cryptocurrency and Blockchain Discussion Thread, there are lots of possibilities.

Where Bitcoin currently has value is a kind of "first mover advantage" and a strong agreed consensus of value based on popularity and relative scarcity. IMO that makes Bitcoin a useful hedge against currency movements, because sometimes using BTC will work out better than using USD, and Bitcoin is likely to appreciate against the dollar for a few years.

Any alternative Crypto might struggle to gain general acceptance and reputation on Earth. including a Martian currency. However if a Martian currency was a representation of something value on Earth like Gold or Diamonds, people on Earth would generally agree the Martin currency had value, and creation of the Martin Coin would not need to be energy intensive.

Like you I can't see any benefit to humanity from the Bitcoin mining process, however it isn't the only way in which humans waste energy and unnecessarily create entropy.

 

[EV forever]

Many posts in this thread that are unfavorable of BitCoin only apply specifically to BitCoin and not cryptocurrency in general.

I already commented in an earlier post regarding BitCoin's energy usage and how many other cryptocurrencies avoid that entirely.

While BTC does not, there are several cryptocurrencies that fully support loans, mortgages, and interest. I currently have large sums of money drawing anywhere from 8-12% APR in cryptocurrency, and these cryptocurrencies I'm invested in are stablecoins that are not at the same risk of value loss as the more speculative coins like BitCoin.

All cryptocurrency exchanges (that operate legally anyway) have full Know Your Customer (KYC) rules, and require full proof of identify before you can trade.

The allegation that the cryptocurrency industry is a pyramid/ponzi scheme is unfounded. No one in cryptocurrency promises any returns, and no profits are paid for with new investors money, both of which are requirements to be labeled as a ponzi/pyramid scheme.

If you don't want to invest in cryptocurrency or feel it's not an investment vehicle for you, that's perfectly OK. But you should make such a judgment based on facts, and currently you are lacking such.

Any examples of which cryptocurrencies you are referring to? It is interesting you state these are stable coins - my impression of crytocurrencies in general is that they are highly volatile and speculative. But I am a total noob at this.

Anyone here buy bitcoin on PayPal? I have an account in PayPal which I usually just use for eBay or other minor purchases. Just found out I could buy bitcoin, ethereum, bitcoin cash or lite coin on it. Seems simple enough to buy

 

[SomeJoe7777]

Any examples of which cryptocurrencies you are referring to? It is interesting you state these are stable coins - my impression of crytocurrencies in general is that they are highly volatile and speculative. But I am a total noob at this.

Stablecoins are coins that are kept at a constant value through various automated means. Many are pegged to the US Dollar, and maintain their value of 1 coin = $1.

Some examples are:

USD Coin (USDC) - join venture by Circle and Coinbase
USD Tether (USDT) - created by Bitfinex
DAI Stablecoin (DAI)

All 3 of these coins are what's called "ERC20 tokens" and they run on the Ethereum blockchain. They are not Ethereum coins, they are their own currency.

If you own them in an Ethereum wallet, you can loan them out through what's called a "smart contract", and they will draw interest. Current interest rates (APR) for each of these is:

USD Coin - 10.09 %
USD Tether - 10.60 %
DAI Stablecoin - 11.33 %

I manage and loan these out through Ledger Live, the software included with the Ledger hardware wallets.

My personal preference is for USD Coin, because Coinbase is a US company, and has published a fully transparent 3rd-party audit that shows that all USD Coin in circulation is backed by actual US Dollars in a 1:1 ratio.

USD Tether makes me a bit nervous as Bitfinex has refused 3rd-party audits, and does not claim full fiat backing of USDT.

Smart contract loans can be closed by you at any time and you can have full control of the stablecoins back in your wallet.

Because the value of stablecoins never changes, many of the cryptocurrency exchanges operate trading pairs for other cryptocurrency where a stablecoin is the transacting currency. e.g. Coinbase Pro has a BTC-USDC trading pair, where you can buy and sell BitCoin using USDC as the currency.

[Disclaimer: I am not an accountant, tax professional, or expert on cryptocurrency, and this post is not to be taken as investment advice.]

 

[Nocturnal]

A Huge Fund Bought Tesla, Apple, and Microsoft Stock. Here’s What It Sold.


A huge Dutch pension recently made big changes in its investments in publicly traded securities.

PGGM of Zeist, Netherlands, initiated a position in electric-vehicle giant Tesla (ticker: TSLA) stock, increased investments in Apple (AAPL) and Microsoft (MSFT) stock, and sold more than a fifth of its position in AT&T (T) stock in the fourth quarter. The not-for-profit cooperative pension fund service disclosed the stock trades, among others, in a form it filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

PGGM didn’t respond to a request for comment on the investment changes. It managed $347 billion in assets as of Dec. 31, and the Sovereign Wealth Fund Institute rates PGGM as one of the 15 largest public pensions in the world by assets.

The pension bought 79,048 shares of Tesla in the fourth quarter. It didn’t own any at the end of the third quarter.

I respectfully disagree.
Not everyone here has thousands-feet homes, or multiple cars, or fly more than once in several years, or eat a cow per month... Not here to judge - I know what my personal sins are - but there are differences.
Environmentally, there is a difference between ICEs and a EVs; there are differences between a cruise-loving frequent-flyer and someone who is not.
I thought for a forum like this those difference were important: if not, we should just believe in high-growth stocks, whatever the companies behind them.

Those differences are important, that’s part of the point. I can’t realistically not own a car and I like fast cars, so my compromise is a performance Tesla. I’m not forced to sacrifice lifestyle while producing less pollution. There is an option.

The benefits of Bitcoin don’t have other options and I’m comfortable with the fact that it’s mostly renewable now (I know there is debate there) and will keep getting cleaner. We all believe solar energy will disrupt fossil fuels right? So why all the worry about btc? Just needs a few more years to be 100% green from cheap solar power.