Beware of Faraday Future and its Potential to Harm the U.S. EV Industry

[Allante]

Although FF generally has been dismissed on this forum as vaporware, recent reporting shows many reasons to be worried about the ability of U.S. EV firms such as Tesla to compete with FF. These reports (Google "Faraday Future Jia Yeuting lecar" and read reports from the Guardian, Clean Technica, and elecrek.co) establish that FF is owned by Chinese entrepreneur Yeuting who has received billions of dollars in subsidies from the Chinese government. Thus, it is clear that the Chinese government is bankrolling FF and its U.S. operations.

Am I the only one apprehensive about that link? Chinese market manipulation and illegal subsidies in many industries (steel, air, autos) are well known to create an unlevel playing field and unfair competition in the U.S. I fear innovators like Tesla who obey competition laws are going to run smack into that morass. I also fear that FF will continue to poach top talent from U.S. firms to the detriment of the U.S. industry and to the benefit of the Chinese government.

Am I being xenophobic or crazy in fearing that the U.S. EV industry will be harmed by FF, which is a shill for the Chinese government?

 

[drinkerofkoolaid]

It is not possible for China to flood the US market with cheap batteries, nor would it be in China's interest to do so. It might be in China's interest to heavily subsidize the expansion of the EV supply chain. This would be a huge asset for US producers, and would be a huge benefit for Tesla, and all automobile manufacturers seeking to produce EVs.

FF could be a legitimate competitor ~2020 if it still exists. FF has yet to prove it can produce a functional and affordable vehicle. The car FF showed off in Beijing was a demo video for a vehicle that looks faraway out there, and doesn't presently exist. IF FF can make a competitive EV by 2020, Tesla will probably have access to the same suppliers, assuming Tesla wants or needs access.

II think if FF is a real company, and not an experiment by a few Chinese billionaires, it will end up being a battery manufacturer and a major player in the rapid expansion of the EV supply chain.

 

[Cosmacelf]

The only thing FF has demonstrated so far is its incompetence. I don't think the US car industry needs to worry too much.

 

[Allante]

It is not possible for China to flood the US market with cheap batteries, nor would it be in China's interest to do so. It might be in China's interest to heavily subsidize the expansion of the EV supply chain. This would be a huge asset for US producers, and would be a huge benefit for Tesla, and all automobile manufacturers seeking to produce EVs.

@drinkerofkoolaid -- I am not concerned about batteries. My fear is this: The Chinese government is using FF to poach top tier talent from Tesla, Apple, Google, etc. to develop and transfer technology and IP to China in order to build China's EV industry. Without such massive subsidies, no private company could afford to build a brand-new plant and pay the high bonuses and salaries necessary to poach employees from Tesla et al. Without the Chinese government's deep pockets, it would take a decade or more to accomplish what FF already has. Indeed, the company boasted that construction of its plant would normally take 4 years, but thanks to its bankrollers, it will do so in just over one year.

 

[drinkerofkoolaid]

@drinkerofkoolaid -- I am not concerned about batteries. My fear is this: The Chinese government is using FF to poach top tier talent from Tesla, Apple, Google, etc. to develop and transfer technology and IP that will build China's EV industry. Without such massive subsidies, no private company could afford to build a brand-new plant and pay the high bonuses and salaries necessary to poach employees from Tesla et al.

This is extremely unlikely.

 

[bonnie]

Though not talked about much, China's solar subsidies were a key factor in Solyndra going under. Solyndra: $1.2 billion in contracts undercut by China

I laughed at Faraday's concept car and lack of preparedness. But I also take them seriously. I believe they'll have a car out. While I believe competition is good for all companies (and Elon's goal is sustainable transport, brand agnostic), it would be awful if China undercut the market and harmed a fledgling industry.

 

[McRat]

If you drove the CODA, you wouldn't be so worried.
It was OK, but ...

 

[Jason S]

@drinkerofkoolaid -- I am not concerned about batteries. My fear is this: The Chinese government is using FF to poach top tier talent from Tesla, Apple, Google, etc. to develop and transfer technology and IP to China in order to build China's EV industry. ... Indeed, the company boasted that construction of its plant would normally take 4 years, but thanks to its bankrollers, it will do so in just over one year.

Worry when they can execute on ... well... anything. Tesla has also shown that cars aren't exactly easy too.

 

[Allante]

Though not talked about much, China's solar subsidies were a key factor in Solyndra going under. Solyndra: $1.2 billion in contracts undercut by China

I laughed at Faraday's concept car and lack of preparedness. But I also take them seriously. I believe they'll have a car out. While I believe competition is good for all companies (and Elon's goal is sustainable transport, brand agnostic), it would be awful if China undercut the market and harmed a fledgling industry.

@bonnie -- I too believe in strong, robust, and FAIR competition. As much as I appreciate what Elon and his company have done, nothing would make me happier than to see Apple introduce a superior car, followed by Tesla and Apple (and maybe others) leapfrogging each other over the next decade.

But I truly fear FF, given its origins. This company is not playing by the same set of rules as Tesla and Apple.

The Solyndra story is very real and very scary. Also not reported very widely is that both A123 and Fisker are now Chinese-owned. Again, another story of American talent, technology, and IP being poached and transferred to China, in a scheme financed by their government.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Spending billions of dollars, and building vehicles, doesn't guarantee success.

Not only do I not think FF will be successful, I think their demise will be used as a cautionary tale for years to come.

Just my opinion.

 

[larmor]

I am worried that they don't execute. Since negativity on an EV will spread to all EVs. The market is huge, but the players and volume, are relatively speaking small. It is actually important that FF gets their product right, don't want to see a repeat of hoverboard fires or fisker disasters...

 

[Allante]

Spending billions of dollars, and building vehicles, doesn't guarantee success.

Not only do I not think FF will be successful, I think their demise will be used as a cautionary tale for years to come.

Just my opinion.

Correct that money isn't everything -- but when combined with leading engineers and managers from Tesla, BMW's i team, GM's Volt team, and others, I start to worry. They have most of the ingredients necessary to succeed. All depends on Jia Yeuting's ability to execute.

 

[Zythryn]

As an aside, anyone else find it interesting that the initials/shorthand for Faraday Futures and Fossil Fuels is the same?

 

[WarpedOne]

FF is missing one key ingredient ... a single person with his own vision, ideas, knowledge, stubbornness and ego. And executional power to change people he sees unfit for the job.

What is there at FF. I just see big pile of cash and even bigger pile of confusion.
Lot of details and no big picture.

 

[Fallenone]

I'm not sure Jia's company is receiving a lot of government incentives, that's BYD's specialty. Jia made his fortune with his Netflix-like on-line video streaming service. Then started to expand to other products, starting with TV, then smartphone (mimicking Steve Jobs styly in announcing products, hence nicknamed Jia-bos in China), now EV. He's playing the capital market quite well, using his own shares of LeTV as collateral to raise capital for his new ventures.

Recently China has tightened up private capital outflow out of China. This could be a reason why FF's factory was delayed.

 

[BluestarE3]

And there's this: Baidu opens self-driving car R&D center in Silicon Valley, hires Tesla Autopilot engineer

 

[brianman]

accomplish what FF already has.

Elaborate on what they've accomplished? I haven't been keeping up.

 

[drinkerofkoolaid]

And there's this: Baidu opens self-driving car R&D center in Silicon Valley, hires Tesla Autopilot engineer

Baidu sounds more like a Tesla partner than a competitor. Semi related, Elon Musk and Jack Ma appear to have a very good relationship.

Without going right into details, the article may as well have said Baidu hired some random employee who still works for Tesla or used to work for Tesla. The article doesn't say who the engineer is, and doesn't say he was poached, or left Tesla. It's possible the engineer still works for Tesla.

The company expects its team will grow to over 100 researchers and engineers by the end of the year. The company already moved several of its staff from its newly-created Autonomous Driving Unit (ADU) to Sunnyvale and recently hired a Tesla Autopilot software engineer.

Its Sunnyvale offices are already full of AI and machine learning experts led by Andrew Ng, the founder and lead scientist of Google’s Deep Learning project. He is now Chief Scientist for Baidu in Silicon Valley.

I'm very confident Tesla has more than a few engineers working on Autonomous Driving.
More importantly, Tesla has a partnership with Baidu in China. A while back Elon mentioned Tesla was working with Baidu on GPS Navigation and Autonomous Driving. (See article below)

Musk also said Tesla is already working with Chinese Internet company Baidu Inc. on GPS navigation and automated driving.

Musk says Tesla negotiating with China on local production

Speaking of Faraday Future, I wouldn't be surprised if FF is a secret Tesla partner. Elon has made it clear he is happy to share his technology with any interested parties, and FF is basically planning to build its factory next to Tesla's.

This article from yesterday almost confirms it:
Faraday Future hires Tesla exec to manage its $1 billion EV factory in Nevada

Before joining Tesla as Director of Global Supplier Industrialization in 2014, De Haan had a long career spanning over 20 years at automotive giant Magna. He held General Manager roles at two of Magna’s factories prior to joining Tesla: Puebla, Mexico (2007-2013) and Liberty, MO (2013-2014)

 

[Paddy]

.... like baidu is a threat to google (other than in markets where google is blocked).

Chinese companies can innovate, but at the moment only in areas where the technology road has already been built. I don't think that applies to EVs yet.

 

[Lloyd]

Faraday seems to have a limited future!!

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