Autopilot is useless on non-highway roads.

[Handsome Jack]

I cannot find a way to submit issues through the US version of the site. Following your link, then logging in, they give me only pre-canned questions and answers..

Try to use "Vehicle & App Features" and then there will be second dropdown - select "Autopillot..." option:

They will show you a few tutorials and ask if you need further assistance, choose yes and you'll be shown a textbox limited to 500 character where you can ask your question:

Great that you also have speed sign reading issue, maybe they can help with that, i.e. it's easier to address than to fix all maps.

 

[jhneuerburg]

They seem to make filing complaint or bugs fixes nearly impossible here. All throughout their site they allude to the option of contacting the customer support team directly, however there is not such option available. I scanned through each answer link, through my account, etc. The only options of contact I can find is a phone number and requesting service on the app, which does not seem fitting in this case.

 

[jhneuerburg]

Here are a few more recent images:

This should have displayed 55mph speed limit (2 lane county highway):

This should have displayed 55mph (2 lane county highway):

This should have displayed 65mph (4 lane US [federal] highway). This instance happened in the dark. Unfortunately, the other instances on this hwy in the day, I was riding solo and could not capture an image. All instances have occurred at different locations. Never consistent. Sometimes it is correct, other times it isn't. Experiencing this in two different cars, so not an issue tied to a single car.

 

[Handsome Jack]

@jhneuerburg shoot they indeed made it impossible to contact them from the USA?! That's surprising...

Your issues seems to be due to wrong map data? If so - it seems it plagued tesla it seems forever (as per forum posts) and it's unlikely they'll do anything with it. How much do you estimate you get wrong vs right the speed limit on those 2 lanes roads? Support constantly recommended to send "report incorrect speed limit" reports via voice commands - did you try that?

It seems it's not my case though.

What I've observed that after update in addition to wrong map data (which is still allowed to use autopilot on 50-70% of 2 lane roads) it added speed sign reading reducing (non highway) roads where autopilot is usable to 5-10%, it looks like this:

It doesn't look bad here but imagine a stretch between tesla sees 30km/hr sign and next sign can be 20-50 km - so for all that duration autopilot is useless as it'll be keep applying that low limit no matter what.

I've recently driven 3.5 hours on such 2-lane road on 9 hours long drive (avoiding traffic jam) and I was just exhausted by that part of the road, 2 lanes windy road where I needed to drive tesla like I had some 20 years old car. While driving there 9hr on highway I've arrived rested on autopilot.

So much so that I've scheduled a test drive of a new Corolla for a whole weekend - if it could handle those windy roads, I'm seriously considering returning tesla (and probably taking a hit financially) and get toyota instead. I've had corolla with Toyota Safety Sense 2.0 - it couldn't handle 30-40% of those roads so it was on pair with tesla before speed sign reading was introduced (where tesla follows road perfectly but applied too low speed limits from map data so had to drive manually). TSS 3.0 supposed to be much more advanced in following road ability.

 

[69KWH]

@jhneuerburg shoot they indeed made it impossible to contact them from the USA?! That's surprising...

Your issues seems to be due to wrong map data? If so - it seems it plagued tesla it seems forever (as per forum posts) and it's unlikely they'll do anything with it. How much do you estimate you get wrong vs right the speed limit on those 2 lanes roads? Support constantly recommended to send "report incorrect speed limit" reports via voice commands - did you try that?

It seems it's not my case though.

What I've observed that after update in addition to wrong map data (which is still allowed to use autopilot on 50-70% of 2 lane roads) it added speed sign reading reducing (non highway) roads where autopilot is usable to 5-10%, it looks like this:

View attachment 1038355
It doesn't look bad here but imagine a stretch between tesla sees 30km/hr sign and next sign can be 20-50 km - so for all that duration autopilot is useless as it'll be keep applying that low limit no matter what.

I've recently driven 3.5 hours on such 2-lane road on 9 hours long drive (avoiding traffic jam) and I was just exhausted by that part of the road, 2 lanes windy road where I needed to drive tesla like I had some 20 years old car. While driving there 9hr on highway I've arrived rested on autopilot.

So much so that I've scheduled a test drive of a new Corolla for a whole weekend - if it could handle those windy roads, I'm seriously considering returning tesla (and probably taking a hit financially) and get toyota instead. I've had corolla with Toyota Safety Sense 2.0 - it couldn't handle 30-40% of those roads so it was on pair with tesla before speed sign reading was introduced (where tesla follows road perfectly but applied too low speed limits from map data so had to drive manually). TSS 3.0 supposed to be much more advanced in following road ability.

If you’re gonna buy a Corolla, buy one that is compatible with CommaAI OpenPilot. OP is 10x better than TSS and will give you the hands free driving you are seeking.

That being said, I drove several OP compatible Toyotas and Hondas and the droning engine sound was extremely annoying on long highway drives. The hybrid versions were more tolerable though.

 

[hmadsen]

@jhneuerburg shoot they indeed made it impossible to contact them from the USA?! That's surprising...

Your issues seems to be due to wrong map data? If so - it seems it plagued tesla it seems forever (as per forum posts) and it's unlikely they'll do anything with it. How much do you estimate you get wrong vs right the speed limit on those 2 lanes roads? Support constantly recommended to send "report incorrect speed limit" reports via voice commands - did you try that?

It seems it's not my case though.

What I've observed that after update in addition to wrong map data (which is still allowed to use autopilot on 50-70% of 2 lane roads) it added speed sign reading reducing (non highway) roads where autopilot is usable to 5-10%, it looks like this:

View attachment 1038355
It doesn't look bad here but imagine a stretch between tesla sees 30km/hr sign and next sign can be 20-50 km - so for all that duration autopilot is useless as it'll be keep applying that low limit no matter what.

I've recently driven 3.5 hours on such 2-lane road on 9 hours long drive (avoiding traffic jam) and I was just exhausted by that part of the road, 2 lanes windy road where I needed to drive tesla like I had some 20 years old car. While driving there 9hr on highway I've arrived rested on autopilot.

So much so that I've scheduled a test drive of a new Corolla for a whole weekend - if it could handle those windy roads, I'm seriously considering returning tesla (and probably taking a hit financially) and get toyota instead. I've had corolla with Toyota Safety Sense 2.0 - it couldn't handle 30-40% of those roads so it was on pair with tesla before speed sign reading was introduced (where tesla follows road perfectly but applied too low speed limits from map data so had to drive manually). TSS 3.0 supposed to be much more advanced in following road ability.

This is exactly what i am seeing multiple places i drive.

It applies some low speed limit, but fails to read or maybe because of faulty map data, the sign that cancels the speed limit and wants to drive with a crazy slow speed (50 kph in 80 kph zone)

Here the law states that if the speed limit deviates from the normal one, there should be a sign every 1 kilometer, showing the speed.

Normal speed for ordinary "outside of cities, but not a motorway" roads is 80 kph.

If, at some place they lower the speed limit to f.ex 60 (Typically going through a small "city", some houses near the road), if i do not see another 60 sign within a kilometer, i am legally allowed to speed up to 80.

The Tesla will gladly on such a stretch drive for 20+ kilometers, claiming the low 60 speed limit, even though it has not seen a single sign for 20 kilometers.

In those cases i usually just apply ACC without AP, because ACC will gladly do 80 even though the car thinks 60 is the allowed limit.

 

[Handsome Jack]

If you’re gonna buy a Corolla, buy one that is compatible with CommaAI OpenPilot. OP is 10x better than TSS and will give you the hands free driving you are seeking.

Oh, interesting the situation of OpenPilot for Teslas, I've seen it supposed to be available March 2024, maybe this can solve issues I'm having, definitely will be cheaper than to change the car (especially that Tesla is superior in every aspect but autopilot).
I'll open a separate thread, thanks for the tip!

Btw I've though it install it on my Toyota with TSS v2.0 but it seems it didn't have driving distance setting (at least back in 2021-22) and it was keeping too large of a distance, where in Eastern Europe people tailgating as a norm.

That being said, I drove several OP compatible Toyotas and Hondas and the droning engine sound was extremely annoying on long highway drives. The hybrid versions were more tolerable though.

Lol Yeah that's true, so much so that I've used a service that installed additional sound dampening so engine won't be that loud - that helped quite a lot, otherwise the noise could melt one's brain.

It applies some low speed limit, but fails to read or maybe because of faulty map data, the sign that cancels the speed limit and wants to drive with a crazy slow speed (50 kph in 80 kph zone)

That sounds like map data issue (which may be fixed with reporting), in my case it reads sign cancelling speed limit but in Europe most of the time speed limit cancel is done by other situations than a sign (like an intersection, leaving town etc) so tesla end up not cancelling the limit at all and applying a limit until it sees another sign (which is also usually lower than normal limit and applies only for 10-15 seconds until for example an intersection)

Btw indeed regular AP is not limited by incorrect speed limits, I bet it's not annoying to use in the states, in Europe our non-highway roads look like this:

Not sure if it's visible on map but there are just a few straight stretches, you constantly have to steer, non-stop, and if the car does that for you it removes like 90% of fatigue.

 

[hmadsen]

Oh, interesting the situation of OpenPilot for Teslas, I've seen it supposed to be available March 2024, maybe this can solve issues I'm having, definitely will be cheaper than to change the car (especially that Tesla is superior in every aspect but autopilot).
I'll open a separate thread, thanks for the tip!

Btw I've though it install it on my Toyota with TSS v2.0 but it seems it didn't have driving distance setting (at least back in 2021-22) and it was keeping too large of a distance, where in Eastern Europe people tailgating as a norm.



Lol Yeah that's true, so much so that I've used a service that installed additional sound dampening so engine won't be that loud - that helped quite a lot, otherwise the noise could melt one's brain.


That sounds like map data issue (which may be fixed with reporting), in my case it reads sign cancelling speed limit but in Europe most of the time speed limit cancel is done by other situations than a sign (like an intersection, leaving town etc) so tesla end up not cancelling the limit at all and applying a limit until it sees another sign (which is also usually lower than normal limit and applies only for 10-15 seconds until for example an intersection)

Btw indeed regular AP is not limited by incorrect speed limits, I bet it's not annoying to use in the states, in Europe our non-highway roads look like this:

View attachment 1038472
Not sure if it's visible on map but there are just a few straight stretches, you constantly have to steer, non-stop, and if the car does that for you it removes like 90% of fatigue.

I tried the reporting, it seems to do nothing.

In one place there is a road with 2 lanes in each direction, at some point there is a turning lane, made specifically for one house because on the rest of the stretch there is a rather wide grass divider.

Every time i navigate there, it tells me to keep to the 2 straight lanes and NOT use the turn lane. Completely not needed to give me guidance there. It even shows the turn lane as a turn around lane, even though it is not even legal to turn around there.

In another place i drive down the main street in "my" city and have to make a left, but the car seems to think i should make a right turn, the go straight ahead and then make 2 left turns.

I tried reporting both, but fck all has happened.

If i started reporting every time there was a map error, they would have to hire someone, exclusively to fix the errors i report i think

 

[Raydohs]

Nearly tested the rear-end collision survival on my MY the other day on Hwy 28 in Idaho. I was buzzing along at 68 in a 65 zone on the 2 lane when the MY suddenly decided that the speed zone dropped to 35 MPH! Quite exciting as it unexpectedly hit the brakes to get us down to that speed but even worse for the F-350 towing a full four-horse trailer a bit too close behind me!! I got a glimpse of him starting to jackknife behind me as I got on the juice to get out of his way!! I bet he wanted to do more than roll coal on me... Can't blame him either. I've had this issue on the rural highways of Idaho now for several years and have reported it via the Maint app, On-line and to Telsa repair via phone, they say to do bug reports... Yeah right... Long stretches of Idaho Hwys will get you a "Something went wrong..." response to a bug report due to no cell coverage. That helps a lot! . Tesla points to the State Hwy Dept (IDOT here) for not updating the info on speed zones. But they, (IDOT) say they don't have any input to the various Mapping providers (Google etc.) Very much a deal killer for FSD. This issue is a real safety problem that needs sorting out. Any ideas Elon?

 

[Handsome Jack]

Good news everyone! I can verify that there IS a solution that does work!

It's recorded in this video -

I don't have my own videos, will record it when I'll have time.

I've ordered Comma 3, ordered a harness - Model 3 / Y - Development Harness + Harnessbox (RHD / LHD Model 3 2019+) | eBay

(note - that for Tesla Model Y and Model 3 before highland and probably after a facelift in 2021)

Installed it a few days back and - OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH BETTER than autosteer!

I'm currently using it with tesla's Traffic Aware Cruise Control when Comma 3 (with open pilot software) handles the steering. (there is an option of TACC controlled by Openpilot but I find it too chill for aggressive Eastern European drivers around)

Main points:

1) No stupid speed limits! It can read 20km/hr on 2 lane country road and I can drive whatever speed I want! (up to 150km/hr). Sometimes Tesla's TACC reduces speed by itself but its' happening like once in 3 hours driving in some specific spot like complex intersection, it's not annoying for me, but if you want to completely get rid of it OpenPilot's TACC is the solution)

2) It is absolutely hands free! Just yesterday I've driven for 1.5 hours on highway and 2 lanes road and I've held a wheel maybe 0.1% of time (multiple lane changes and few very sharp turns). Not sure about nags in case of phone usage - I was constantly staring in front of the car and hands were close to steering wheel as I don't know how system work, how reliable it is so didn't feel safe enough to check the phone. (but so far so good, but need to get some experience with it)

3) It changes lanes! You just turn on blinker and slightly touch the wheel in the direction of lane change - and it does it super-fast (within 2-3 seconds vs 8-10 seconds enhanced autopilot at least in EU). This mean that it's usable even in city driving.

Frankly I'm not sure that I even need FSD in this case. Hands free driving is super relaxed, even in traffic I'm operating steering wheel like under 3-5% of time, on highways it's like 0.1% - I would say to solve that won't worth the hustle. So pity that Tesla's systems aren't that good and cannot be used this way.

I can say that for me it's 100% money well spent, and I highly recommend it to anyone who suffers from tesla speed limitations as a solution.

A few things to consider:

1) Harness installation is not very easy, need to disassemble about 5-6 panels and work in tight spaces, I kind of have two left hands so I didn't even attempt to do it. I've used service of an auto electrician to install it. (there is a manual available how to do the installation - I recommend printing it and bring with you)

2) You'll need a long (2 meters) USB C cable to connect the device, but not all cables will work, buy the best cable you can get, that is capable to transfer files with 10gb/s speed, transfer 8k video signal etc. I've had a regular charging + data cable that didn't work and had to go to a store to get a better one.

3) There are some instructions that need to be completed so you better be a bit technical, you better to join openpilot's discord server and go straight to #tesla channel, people there are very helpful. Luckily once setup it's generally trouble free and doesn't require attention.

Feel free to AMA

 

[hmadsen]

Good news everyone! I can verify that there IS a solution that does work!

It's recorded in this video -

I don't have my own videos, will record it when I'll have time.

I've ordered Comma 3, ordered a harness - Model 3 / Y - Development Harness + Harnessbox (RHD / LHD Model 3 2019+) | eBay

(note - that for Tesla Model Y and Model 3 before highland and probably after a facelift in 2021)

Installed it a few days back and - OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH BETTER than autosteer!

I'm currently using it with tesla's Traffic Aware Cruise Control when Comma 3 (with open pilot software) handles the steering. (there is an option of TACC controlled by Openpilot but I find it too chill for aggressive Eastern European drivers around)

Main points:

1) No stupid speed limits! It can read 20km/hr on 2 lane country road and I can drive whatever speed I want! (up to 150km/hr). Sometimes Tesla's TACC reduces speed by itself but its' happening like once in 3 hours driving in some specific spot like complex intersection, it's not annoying for me, but if you want to completely get rid of it OpenPilot's TACC is the solution)

2) It is absolutely hands free! Just yesterday I've driven for 1.5 hours on highway and 2 lanes road and I've held a wheel maybe 0.1% of time (multiple lane changes and few very sharp turns). Not sure about nags in case of phone usage - I was constantly staring in front of the car and hands were close to steering wheel as I don't know how system work, how reliable it is so didn't feel safe enough to check the phone. (but so far so good, but need to get some experience with it)

3) It changes lanes! You just turn on blinker and slightly touch the wheel in the direction of lane change - and it does it super-fast (within 2-3 seconds vs 8-10 seconds enhanced autopilot at least in EU). This mean that it's usable even in city driving.

Frankly I'm not sure that I even need FSD in this case. Hands free driving is super relaxed, even in traffic I'm operating steering wheel like under 3-5% of time, on highways it's like 0.1% - I would say to solve that won't worth the hustle. So pity that Tesla's systems aren't that good and cannot be used this way.

I can say that for me it's 100% money well spent, and I highly recommend it to anyone who suffers from tesla speed limitations as a solution.

A few things to consider:

1) Harness installation is not very easy, need to disassemble about 5-6 panels and work in tight spaces, I kind of have two left hands so I didn't even attempt to do it. I've used service of an auto electrician to install it. (there is a manual available how to do the installation - I recommend printing it and bring with you)

2) You'll need a long (2 meters) USB C cable to connect the device, but not all cables will work, buy the best cable you can get, that is capable to transfer files with 10gb/s speed, transfer 8k video signal etc. I've had a regular charging + data cable that didn't work and had to go to a store to get a better one.

3) There are some instructions that need to be completed so you better be a bit technical, you better to join openpilot's discord server and go straight to #tesla channel, people there are very helpful. Luckily once setup it's generally trouble free and doesn't require attention.

Feel free to AMA

I wonder what Teslas response will be....They claim to have the most advanced self driving software, but now someone claims this box retrofitted will work better than Tesla's own software.

Maybe now is the time for Tesla to make the EAP package an included feature or atleast lower the price to something comparable to this or people might start buying this unit instead.

 

[69KWH]

Excellent news on the OpenPilot success! For $1400 including harness cost this is a much better deal than FSD. It’s nice to finally have viable alternatives on the market.

 

[LadyOnikara]

Before that FSD trial, our car had the speed limit right for one road. During the trial and now afterward, it seems to have forgotten that the 65 speed limit sign still exists. It doesn't change to 65 like it used to.

 

[primedive]

I wonder what Teslas response will be....They claim to have the most advanced self driving software, but now someone claims this box retrofitted will work better than Tesla's own software.

Maybe now is the time for Tesla to make the EAP package an included feature or atleast lower the price to something comparable to this or people might start buying this unit instead.

It’s embarrassing if accurate. Some open source thing that you have to wire in shouldn’t be working better than the car’s own software. Hopefully Tesla steps it up.

 

[Handsome Jack]

It looks like FSD v12 available in the USA and Canada is better, but not sure if it allows to overwrite incorrect speed limits (I've heard some people saying that it does, other says it does not) - if it does not allow to overwrite - it's mind blowing how small nuance can just ruin the whole experience.

In the rest of the world we're getting only autosteer which currently years behind of systems of other makers (like Toyota) where nonsensical speed limits makes even that totally unusable.

In that case Comma3 indeed a HUGE upgrade.

IMO Tesla will do nothing about it - first of all they don't have stuff for that (the stuff they had probably will be fixing Cybertruck issues for years to come).
Second - it looks like that assistance systems are not big deal almost for everyone. In EU people are complaining about it and they like cars where you can just permanently disable them. Even here on this forum most replies were like "what's the big deal just press accelerator yourself or drive yourself"

For me it's a huge deal as I'm getting tired while driving and then have less energy to do work (thus earning less) or other life activities so investing money into assistance systems, I'm kind of buying time so totally worth it at least for me.

 

[BitJam]

I've found that after a recent update, Autopilot has become useless on non-highway, two-lane roads.

With the update, Tesla learned how to read speed limits and enforces a maximum Autopilot speed of +10 km/h (6.2 miles per hour).

That may be true where you live but where I live (rural New Mexico, USA) AP is still useful on many non-highway, two-lane roads. I admit there are some roads where I no longer bother with AP due to the new slow speeds but they are in the minority.

Overall, I see this as a good thing, especially when combined with the fact that they recently fixed the map so my car finally knows how to drive to the grocery store. Perhaps my two biggest complaints about FSD when I tried it last summer were the car couldn't drive me to the grocery store and it wanted to go way too fast in some areas making it extremely, ridiculously unsafe.

I still don't have the v12 FSD free trial yet but I am delighted they made the car less suicidal and they finally told it how to get me to the grocery store. IMO these changes were necessary for FSD to be at all useful here. If they are trying to transition to actual FSD then it is far better to err on the side of going too slow rather than going too fast.

If they go too fast then there will be accidents with people getting hurt and killed. Pretty much game-over in many ways. In addition, going too slow can be less of a hassle if the car is actually doing the driving. They can then fine-tune and raise the speed limits of the cars at their leisure. Also, I hear the newest versions of FSD will go significantly faster than the posted speed limit when it seems safe. This might end up being a really good solution to this problem. They will probably never get the posted speed limits exactly right everywhere so erring on the slower side for the speed limits and then going faster when it seems safe could be the way to go.

IMO preparing FSD to be used across the US and then across the world is a massive undertaking that requires much more than just AI training.

I think it is absolutely true that Tesla is going "all in" on FSD. Sometimes this is to the detriment of manual or semi-manual driving. We have seen this pattern over and over again with Tesla. Yes, it can be a big pain in the neck but I see these changes as necessary steps to having FSD actually work where I live.

One strange thing here is the changes in the speed limits and the fixes to navigation did not happen during a firmware update or after a change in the nav data date in the Software tab which says the nav data is still from 2023. I noticed the nav data change when more road names appeared in a route I navigate to once a week. I keep navigation on to get the ETA. After I saw this I checked navigating to the grocery store and saw that was fixed too.

 

[Handsome Jack]

@BitJam can you please clarify, if your car reads speed limit let's say 35 with FSD on can you override it to let's say 60?

Generally, if FSD 12 available and it doesn't force you to too low speed limit it's clearly superior to Comma devise.

From what I see in this topic some people have just a few speed limits issues, another has A LOT. I guess you're in the lucky group

However, not all regions get FSD 12, those who don't - comma is superior just in all regards to autosteer.

 

[BitJam]

@BitJam can you please clarify, if your car reads speed limit let's say 35 with FSD on can you override it to let's say 60?

I can over-ride it to any speed in areas considered to be out-of-town but in areas that are considered to be in-town I can only go 5 mph (8 kph) over what the car thinks is the posted speed. On one stretch of road I use frequently I know exactly where the in-town to out-of-town border is. AFAIK there is nothing special about that spot. I have no idea why Tesla chose it. IMO both sides are equally in-town.

Generally, if FSD 12 available and it doesn't force you to too low speed limit it's clearly superior to Comma devise.

From what I see in this topic some people have just a few speed limits issues, another has A LOT. I guess you're in the lucky group

However, not all regions get FSD 12, those who don't - comma is superior just in all regards to autosteer.

As I said, I think Tesla is sacrificing the current manual and semi-manual experience in pursuit of getting FSD to actually work. This is not new.

 

[Handsome Jack]

I can over-ride it to any speed in areas considered to be out-of-town but in areas that are considered to be in-town I can only go 5 mph (8 kph) over what the car thinks is the posted speed. On one stretch of road I use frequently I know exactly where the in-town to out-of-town border is. AFAIK there is nothing special about that spot. I have no idea why Tesla chose it. IMO both sides are equally in-town.

Ah, thanks for clarification! This why probably some people saying they can override and another don't

In EU it allows to override only on roads with 2 or more lanes in the same direction mostly out-of-town (with a few exception). On 2 lanes roads no overriding.

What you said looks like a reasonable compromise.

As I said, I think Tesla is sacrificing the current manual and semi-manual experience in pursuit of getting FSD to actually work. This is not new.

Yeah, that's very good summary. Luckily there is a solution now, for those who don't want or physically cannot get FSD.

 

[hmadsen]

It’s embarrassing if accurate. Some open source thing that you have to wire in shouldn’t be working better than the car’s own software. Hopefully Tesla steps it up.

I completely agree and it seems the open source box is even 1/8 of the price.

I can not see how Tesla will NOT respond to this.

There is no doubt that this box is never going to be "as integrated" as the actual FSD computer in the car so my initial thought is, Tesla is probably going to do a software update that shuts down this box, they will probably say it is because it is not allowed to retrofit stuff that takes over the safety aspect of the car.

In a sense i would understand them, there is no doubt, if there is a software bug in the open source box or it fails in some way and this leads to Tesla's crashing, that the media would not understand this enough to blame the open source box, and not just say "Another Tesla crashed while it was in self drive mode".

What Tesla SHOULD do, is offcourse to lower the price of their offerings, i mean at some point the will have to anyway, because more and more of these functions they demand a premium for is already kind of standard features in more and more cars.

If Tesla keeps wanting mulit 1000s of dollars for these functions they will lose costumers.

I would imagine the EAP package becoming an included feature and the FSD package being lowered in price.