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AutoPilot bug - Shadow braking
- Thread starter RyanS
- Start date
ponzu
Member
Thanks, that thread seems much more active. If I continue pursuing the "Is Tesla really using OSM for nav, and is the lack of speed limit data in OSM causing EAP to slow down to the default 45mph?" line of inquiry, I'll do it there.
Hmm, based on your post, I went into OSM to see if I could fix the speed limits on a road I travel daily that is 65mph that Tesla thinks is 45mph. In OSM, the roads show correctly as 65mph, so I am not sure where Tesla got the 45mph data from. (It shows as 45mph for a full 20 miles, so it isn't just a small data hole)
ponzu
Member
As I told the OP of that thread, the thought that Tesla uses naked OSM data is at once exciting, scary and hard to believe. The jury is still very much out. The more data we share, the better.
Would you mind sharing the segment in question? We can see when it was last edited. Maybe speed limit was added recently. Maybe it has separate roads for carpool and regular lane, etc.
The road GutsyGibbon travels had speed limit data missing on OSM exactly where he said his car brakes.
Do you mean that the ultrasonics are not covered (small round sensors) or a radar? Note, the radar is not visible - it's hidden behind the bumper. So it's not possible to tell exactly where it's located.
In that Tesla's reply they were specific that the problem was with the radar and not with ultrasonics.
GutsyGibbon
Member
Sure, navigate from CA 92128 to Dave & Busters 2931 Camino Del Rio N, San Diego, CA 92108
ponzu
Member
As far as I can tell, that particular D&B is not mapped on OSM. How did you navigate to it? By name, by address? How Tesla found the D&B you wanted, how it placed the coordinates (latitude and longitude, but not the elevation) on the map, which map it used -- none of this is apparent. If you report the bug to Tesla, they would know a lot more to start troubleshooting than we do.
Rosamond Blvd east of Rosamond, CA on Edwards AFB. The section after the city limits up to just past the curve is 65mph but the car says 45mph.
ponzu
Member
I don't think the reports of Tesla using OSM for any part of it navigation and specifically for speed limits have panned out at this point. There is only one outlet (Electrek) pushing it, and only one user here who picked up on that story and though he was able to prove it by making a road config change on OSM and observing it take effect in his nav, but he later recanted it.
I added 65 mph limit to a stretch of NB I-15 for GutsyGibbon to test, but I am not holding my breath.
The informed consensus (unconfirmed by Tesla) is that they use TomTom for speed limit data.
TomTom has an error reporting tool Map Share™ Reporter but I have no idea how effective it it. They do not show the existing speed limits, only let you supply new speed limits, which they may then
a) ignore
b) reject
c) fail to make available to Tesla in a timely fashion,
etc.
I think Tesla has to fix how and which data they use, rather than the users taking the crowdsourcing approach to fixing the data, the way it would be done on OSM or Waze.
d21mike
Active Member
I am curious. You are stating here that you can change the OSM Database and earlier you said pretty much anyone can make the change with a little experience. If so, how secure is this process. I mean you said you added 65 mph limit to a stretch of road. What if you set it to 70 mph? But what if the real speed limit was 55 mph. Would that not be a problem?
ponzu
Member
How secure is the process... Secure... I am turning the word over in my mind in order to answer your question to the best of my ability. Secure vs. safe vs. right vs. a good idea vs. best available vs. comfortable. It all depends on a variety of factors, including how Tesla chooses to use the data.
Let's start with what's not safe, or smart. Using an incomplete speed database and defaulting to 45 mph when speed is not available, having the car abruptly slow down from perhaps 70 (65 + 5) to 50 (45 + 5). Yet, the database is secure, since, presumably, only TomTom can edit it.
This can be improved by either improving the algorithm or the data. Let's say the algorithm is written in stone until the next release. How can we improve the driving experience given the bad algorithm. Let's change the data. Let you or me, or someone else with good intentions and minimal skills, change the speed limit to 65mph. Completely unsecure, but much safer if our change is accepted and Tesla receives and uses our data.
Let's say we are ill-informed, or highly unskillful, or are just in a prankster state of mind. Let's say we set the limit to 75mph, in the same unsecure fashion. Let's say the change takes, and the car attempts to go by it next time. Let's say there is a car in front. As far as I understand the algorithm, the car will not speed up into the next car just because the speed limit tells it it can. No harm done. Safe. This is different from the speed limit, even presumed speed limit, going abruptly down. In that case, the car is likely to slow down abruptly, and we have no information as to whether it will respect the fact that there is an oncoming car traveling at or about the old speed. Not safe. Not a good idea.
Now, let's say the road is clear next time and someone notices the car speeds up for no reason, and the sped limit sign on the screen jumps up to 75. That person can correct the data back to 65mph.
We can assume that there are more skilled and well-intentioned users than vandals, so by allowing unsecured changes we can expect to have a more secure solution in the long run. All crowdsourcing works on this premise, the question is how comfortable we are relying on the accuracy of crowdsourced data when it comes to the speed our car travels vs. the speed of service at the local restaurants.
Now suppose someone changes the speed limit to 100mph. There has to be a common sense check in place that will tell Tesla that that's an invalid speed limit that must be ignored. Ideally, the data editor (OSM or other) will reject a change like that.
I believe currently algorithms are more important than data to Tesla. But in the long run, I believe crowdsourced speed limit data is safer and a better idea than any closed data source.
A shorter answer to your second question could have been: yes, setting speed limit to 75mph were it is actually 55mph is a problem, but a smaller problem than defaulting to 45mph where speed limit is unknown.
If Tesla are not frantically working on improving this part of their AP, they are setting themselves and their customers for a whole world of hurt, in the case of the drivers, possibly physical.
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Dan_LA
Member
ponzu
Member
Basically, no one really knows.
AP2 (aka EAP), which you have, is presumed to not be reading speed limit signs anymore.
Tesla's navigation system is presumed to be reading speed limits from TomTom geodata database.
How TomTom sets, manages and QAs the speed limit data is not clear. They have a web tool (as well as a capability built into their navigation hardware, though not Tesla UI) to report incorrect speed limits. The reports that TMC members have made are said to have made no difference. TomTom may not be accepting them or may not be making them available to Tesla in a timely fashion. Tesla also may not, contrary to popular belief, be using TomTom's speed limit data. Earlier in this thread we speculated (prompted by persistent Electrek reporting and a separate TMC thread) that Tesla is using OpenStreetMap (OSM) for some part of its navigation. If Tesla is using OSM, correcting or adding speed limits is a basic task available to anyone.
At any rate, it is worth recording a bug report using voice every time you observe either or both
- AP change speed unexpectedly
- speed limit in the nav UI disappear or change to a wrong value.
Having recorded a bug report, you still need to call it in to customer service and tech support, who will then retrieve the bug report from your logs. Without a call, the bug report does not go anywhere.
It also may be worthwhile to report the incorrect/missing speed limit to TomTom via Map Share™ Reporter It may not lead to any improvements, but it will not hurt, other than consuming your time.
ponzu
Member
P.S. to what I said about TomTom map error reports allegedly not having an effect on Tesla AP.
I read elsewhere on TMC that unlike routing info, which is now cloud-based and instantly correctable, speed limit data is stored on board. If that's correct, then the speed limit corrections made through Map Share™ Reporter, if accepted by TomTom's editors, will make it to Tesla cars eventually -- unless Tesla switches to a different data source.
I read elsewhere on TMC that unlike routing info, which is now cloud-based and instantly correctable, speed limit data is stored on board. If that's correct, then the speed limit corrections made through Map Share™ Reporter, if accepted by TomTom's editors, will make it to Tesla cars eventually -- unless Tesla switches to a different data source.
GutsyGibbon
Member
Is there a thread on how to do this? Any voice command I do, it seems to go a search in the browser and show random results. While playing slacker, If I say "Play FM radio 89.5", does a search of FM Radio 89.5 and plays a random streaming channel.
Just saying "Play FM radio" - does not switch to the previously used FM channel, but switches to some random channel.
What voice command do you use to file a bug report? I will gladly file a bug report, but I cant follow up with a phone call, the wait times to speak to reps are horrendous. I have enough of bugs in my own software to debug and support, I do not have the patience to help debug bugs in the products I buy, especially when I have workarounds.
I have filed 3 different bugs, but I can never follow up with a phone call to the rep. IMHO, if Tesla is genuinely interested in fixing these niggles, they should call the bug reporters - (early adopters who are sort of dogfooding some of their product features)
ponzu
Member
A contractor who recently left constantly referred to "bird dogging". We just had to guess as to what he meant. I finally looked it up and yes, I guessed correctly. I think you may mean the same, as "dogfooding" (also had to look it up) would suggest Tesla software engineers driving Tesla cars.
As far as voice commands, you are supposed to say "Note", "Report", "Bug note" or "Bug report" per the manual. I don't know if there is any difference in what happens after it takes your report based on the words you used to initiate it, other than perhaps how your note will be tagged, if that.
I contacted support once, by phone, and had no trouble connecting. There is probably a way to call them right from the car, so if you are not doing anything else, other than driving, why not?
Here is an almost 2-year old video that shows that only "Report" properly works on the then Model X UI.
ponzu
Member
Also, there was some Twitter traffic form Elon yesterday on improved voice bug reporting coming to Model 3 within the next two months. I did not see the original Twitter thread, but it's being reported almost as a new feature. One inference was that the bug reports will now go directly to Tesla without the need of a followup call. All this was overshadowed by CR reversing on its non-recommendation of Model 3, so I could not find a complete summary/analysis of what Elon actually promised. It's probably somewhere here on TMC. I do not use raw Twitter.Is there a thread on how to do this? Any voice command I do, it seems to go a search in the browser and show random results. While playing slacker, If I say "Play FM radio 89.5", does a search of FM Radio 89.5 and plays a random streaming channel.
Just saying "Play FM radio" - does not switch to the previously used FM channel, but switches to some random channel.
What voice command do you use to file a bug report? I will gladly file a bug report, but I cant follow up with a phone call, the wait times to speak to reps are horrendous. I have enough of bugs in my own software to debug and support, I do not have the patience to help debug bugs in the products I buy, especially when I have workarounds.
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