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Israel/Hamas conflict

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Here's my observations from a decent amount of reading about the history of this conflict

Phase 1: Immigration

1) Ottoman Empire allowed Jews to buy up land in Palestine starting around 1900. Baron Rothschild took advantage.

2) Jews emigrated in increasing numbers decade after decade, and Palestine being "owned" by the British was imminent, they set forth a goal for a Jewish State in the 1917 Balfour Declaration.

3) Arab / Jew conflicts increased but were sporadic as Jews kept legally buying more land. Then the Holocaust happened and immigration accelerated.

4) By 1948, Jewish immigrants were > 30% of the population and I believe owned around 50% of the land. Legally. Arabs in Palestine have some legitimate gripes, but let's not pretend like Jewish settlers illegally entered the area.

5) Up to this point, Arabs rejected mutliple proposals for a two state solution. Earlier ones had a much smaller area allocated for a Jewish state.

Phase 2: Wars

1) Israel declared independence and multiple Arab countries attacked. Israel won. Not surprisingly, they took more land (you know that's common in war right?). Arabs fleed Israeli land (and some were pushed out, what % is unclear). Jews were pushed out of / fleed basically every other Arab country.

2) The West Bank is absorbed by Jordan, and Gaza by Egypt. But they do not fully integrate them (because that would signal acceptance of the Israel state). Nor are they made into their own country. This could have happened at any time for 18 years. Meanwhile Israel goes from nothing into a functioning state.

Keep this in mind again - Israel develops much more rapidly than the Palestinian territories from 1948 to 1966 - and you can't blame Israel for that.

3) Arab aggression in 1966 leads to another war. Israel was the initial attacker but the details seem to indicate lots of Arab intimdation and blockading of shipping. Arabs lose again. So now they lose more land, and Israel now takes Gaza and West Bank. In theory, it's Israeli land now.

4) Another attack by Arabs in the Yom Kippur War in 1973, Arabs lose for the 3rd time. I don't recall if Israel takes more land after this, but they do give the Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt in an agreement for peace. (E.g. Israel was willing to trade "land for peace").

Phase 3: Occupation and Failed Peace

1) I admittedly don't know much about those initial decades of occupation. I do know many attempts have been made to help Palestinians, e.g. with work permits to work in Israel, but that has all gotten worse over time.

2) Palestinians still want all the land back. They do not want to setlle for a two state solution and reject multiple peace talks as they feel they are unrealistic. I believe Israel has also rejected at least one proposal they felt was unrealistic. However proposals went as far as giving Palestine back almost all of the occupied land (that Israel owns), but that was not good enough.

3) Attacks on Israel continue. Jewish settlements into what was Palestinian land pre 1966 definitely makes tensions worse. This creates a negative feedback cycle - more Israeli troops and control of and inside the borders to reduce retaliation, which means more violence and death of Palestinians, which itself creates more retaliation.

4) It's 75 years after the 1948 war and Israel's declaration of statehood. Palestinians believe they deserve Right of Return. One key motto in their protests is "From River to Sea". We're not even talking about Hamas' doctrine to eliminate Jews, or any outrageous thing Iran says.


Summary

This is not hyperbole: There is ample evidence that Palestinians still want Jews removed from modern day Israeli land. Honestly, nothing else matters as long as this is so. You can't "free Palestine" when the logical expectation is they will just keep attacking or try to get into Israeli land.

I mean, common sense, this is fundamentally not going to happen. It's laughable if you read all this history. If people legitimately cared about the Palestinian quality of life, they would urge them to accept a two state solution, and none of this Right of Return nonsense.

Westerners protesting along with Palestinians holding these signs like "from river to sea" are just tools of the Palestinian agenda. You are enabling them to keep up hateful rhetoric. They are literally pushing for eradification of Israel.

You can think westerns aren't being anti-semitic by supporting the Palestinian cause. But the Palestinian "cause" is very clearly anti-semitic as defined by their stated goals and what "peace" they are willing to accept. You'll excuse my Jewish friends who might be taking aback by calls to be eliminated.
 
Here's my observations from a decent amount of reading about the history of this conflict

Phase 1: Immigration

1) Ottoman Empire allowed Jews to buy up land in Palestine starting around 1900. Baron Rothschild took advantage.

2) Jews emigrated in increasing numbers decade after decade, and Palestine being "owned" by the British was imminent, they set forth a goal for a Jewish State in the 1917 Balfour Declaration.

3) Arab / Jew conflicts increased but were sporadic as Jews kept legally buying more land. Then the Holocaust happened and immigration accelerated.

4) By 1948, Jewish immigrants were > 30% of the population and I believe owned around 50% of the land. Legally. Arabs in Palestine have some legitimate gripes, but let's not pretend like Jewish settlers illegally entered the area.

5) Up to this point, Arabs rejected mutliple proposals for a two state solution. Earlier ones had a much smaller area allocated for a Jewish state.

Phase 2: Wars

1) Israel declared independence and multiple Arab countries attacked. Israel won. Not surprisingly, they took more land (you know that's common in war right?). Arabs fleed Israeli land (and some were pushed out, what % is unclear). Jews were pushed out of / fleed basically every other Arab country.

2) The West Bank is absorbed by Jordan, and Gaza by Egypt. But they do not fully integrate them (because that would signal acceptance of the Israel state). Nor are they made into their own country. This could have happened at any time for 18 years. Meanwhile Israel goes from nothing into a functioning state.

Keep this in mind again - Israel develops much more rapidly than the Palestinian territories from 1948 to 1966 - and you can't blame Israel for that.

3) Arab aggression in 1966 leads to another war. Israel was the initial attacker but the details seem to indicate lots of Arab intimdation and blockading of shipping. Arabs lose again. So now they lose more land, and Israel now takes Gaza and West Bank. In theory, it's Israeli land now.

4) Another attack by Arabs in the Yom Kippur War in 1973, Arabs lose for the 3rd time. I don't recall if Israel takes more land after this, but they do give the Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt in an agreement for peace. (E.g. Israel was willing to trade "land for peace").

Phase 3: Occupation and Failed Peace

1) I admittedly don't know much about those initial decades of occupation. I do know many attempts have been made to help Palestinians, e.g. with work permits to work in Israel, but that has all gotten worse over time.

2) Palestinians still want all the land back. They do not want to setlle for a two state solution and reject multiple peace talks as they feel they are unrealistic. I believe Israel has also rejected at least one proposal they felt was unrealistic. However proposals went as far as giving Palestine back almost all of the occupied land (that Israel owns), but that was not good enough.

3) Attacks on Israel continue. Jewish settlements into what was Palestinian land pre 1966 definitely makes tensions worse. This creates a negative feedback cycle - more Israeli troops and control of and inside the borders to reduce retaliation, which means more violence and death of Palestinians, which itself creates more retaliation.

4) It's 75 years after the 1948 war and Israel's declaration of statehood. Palestinians believe they deserve Right of Return. One key motto in their protests is "From River to Sea". We're not even talking about Hamas' doctrine to eliminate Jews, or any outrageous thing Iran says.


Summary

This is not hyperbole: There is ample evidence that Palestinians still want Jews removed from modern day Israeli land. Honestly, nothing else matters as long as this is so. You can't "free Palestine" when the logical expectation is they will just keep attacking or try to get into Israeli land.

I mean, common sense, this is fundamentally not going to happen. It's laughable if you read all this history. If people legitimately cared about the Palestinian quality of life, they would urge them to accept a two state solution, and none of this Right of Return nonsense.

Westerners protesting along with Palestinians holding these signs like "from river to sea" are just tools of the Palestinian agenda. You are enabling them to keep up hateful rhetoric. They are literally pushing for eradification of Israel.

You can think westerns aren't being anti-semitic by supporting the Palestinian cause. But the Palestinian "cause" is very clearly anti-semitic as defined by their stated goals and what "peace" they are willing to accept. You'll excuse my Jewish friends who might be taking aback by calls to be eliminated.

Very articulate summary. Israel did gain a fair slice of the Golan Heights from Syria following the Yom Kippur War, btw.
 
The Palestinians can't be bargained with. That was plain for all to see when Bill Clinton tried negotiating with Arafat. The Hamas charter calls for the obliteration and dissolution of Israel. That's their only road to peace in their own words. The majority of people in Gaza voted Hamas into power so I'm not sympathetic to their situation when they started a war and call for the extermination of Jews.
 
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Wait - are you still believing Hamas' claims regarding the hospital?

French military intelligence says Israeli strike not behind Gaza hospital blast​


Gaza hospital blast was caused by misfired rocket, says European military source​


The hospital fire and the later analysis is why I'm skeptical of claims from either side when some major tragedy happens. It's very hard to tell in the short term which side is telling the truth and which is lying.

Here's my observations from a decent amount of reading about the history of this conflict

Phase 1: Immigration

1) Ottoman Empire allowed Jews to buy up land in Palestine starting around 1900. Baron Rothschild took advantage.

2) Jews emigrated in increasing numbers decade after decade, and Palestine being "owned" by the British was imminent, they set forth a goal for a Jewish State in the 1917 Balfour Declaration.

3) Arab / Jew conflicts increased but were sporadic as Jews kept legally buying more land. Then the Holocaust happened and immigration accelerated.

4) By 1948, Jewish immigrants were > 30% of the population and I believe owned around 50% of the land. Legally. Arabs in Palestine have some legitimate gripes, but let's not pretend like Jewish settlers illegally entered the area.

5) Up to this point, Arabs rejected mutliple proposals for a two state solution. Earlier ones had a much smaller area allocated for a Jewish state.

Phase 2: Wars

1) Israel declared independence and multiple Arab countries attacked. Israel won. Not surprisingly, they took more land (you know that's common in war right?). Arabs fleed Israeli land (and some were pushed out, what % is unclear). Jews were pushed out of / fleed basically every other Arab country.

2) The West Bank is absorbed by Jordan, and Gaza by Egypt. But they do not fully integrate them (because that would signal acceptance of the Israel state). Nor are they made into their own country. This could have happened at any time for 18 years. Meanwhile Israel goes from nothing into a functioning state.

Keep this in mind again - Israel develops much more rapidly than the Palestinian territories from 1948 to 1966 - and you can't blame Israel for that.

3) Arab aggression in 1966 leads to another war. Israel was the initial attacker but the details seem to indicate lots of Arab intimdation and blockading of shipping. Arabs lose again. So now they lose more land, and Israel now takes Gaza and West Bank. In theory, it's Israeli land now.

4) Another attack by Arabs in the Yom Kippur War in 1973, Arabs lose for the 3rd time. I don't recall if Israel takes more land after this, but they do give the Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt in an agreement for peace. (E.g. Israel was willing to trade "land for peace").

Phase 3: Occupation and Failed Peace

1) I admittedly don't know much about those initial decades of occupation. I do know many attempts have been made to help Palestinians, e.g. with work permits to work in Israel, but that has all gotten worse over time.

2) Palestinians still want all the land back. They do not want to setlle for a two state solution and reject multiple peace talks as they feel they are unrealistic. I believe Israel has also rejected at least one proposal they felt was unrealistic. However proposals went as far as giving Palestine back almost all of the occupied land (that Israel owns), but that was not good enough.

3) Attacks on Israel continue. Jewish settlements into what was Palestinian land pre 1966 definitely makes tensions worse. This creates a negative feedback cycle - more Israeli troops and control of and inside the borders to reduce retaliation, which means more violence and death of Palestinians, which itself creates more retaliation.

4) It's 75 years after the 1948 war and Israel's declaration of statehood. Palestinians believe they deserve Right of Return. One key motto in their protests is "From River to Sea". We're not even talking about Hamas' doctrine to eliminate Jews, or any outrageous thing Iran says.


Summary

This is not hyperbole: There is ample evidence that Palestinians still want Jews removed from modern day Israeli land. Honestly, nothing else matters as long as this is so. You can't "free Palestine" when the logical expectation is they will just keep attacking or try to get into Israeli land.

I mean, common sense, this is fundamentally not going to happen. It's laughable if you read all this history. If people legitimately cared about the Palestinian quality of life, they would urge them to accept a two state solution, and none of this Right of Return nonsense.

Westerners protesting along with Palestinians holding these signs like "from river to sea" are just tools of the Palestinian agenda. You are enabling them to keep up hateful rhetoric. They are literally pushing for eradification of Israel.

You can think westerns aren't being anti-semitic by supporting the Palestinian cause. But the Palestinian "cause" is very clearly anti-semitic as defined by their stated goals and what "peace" they are willing to accept. You'll excuse my Jewish friends who might be taking aback by calls to be eliminated.

This is one of the world's biggest intractable problems. A significant number of people on both sides in this conflict have no compromise victory conditions that are mutually exclusive of one another. When even one side in a conflict is pig headed and unwilling to compromise in good faith a problem is not solvable, but when both sides have a high number of pig headed people unwilling to compromise, any solution is hopeless until people change.
 
The "whataboutism" & "moral equivalence" in this thread from people who probably think very highly of themselves is staggering. That ANY of you can support this genocidal "From the river to the sea" or "Stand with Palestine" rhetoric is disgusting.
To be charitable, I'd wager that many of the anti-Israeli protesters are totally ignorant of Hamas' genocidal charter and have no idea that "From the River to the Sea" is a call for the total destruction of Israel.

They only see this conflict through the simplistic prism of "big guy vs. little guy" or simply see Israel as "colonizers" which fits into the garbage narrative pushed by radical Leftists in our universities and major newsrooms.

In other words, they are totally pig ignorant of the facts and history and it has totally skewed their moral compasses.

What I can't understand is all the videos of people tearing down posters of the missing and kidnapped people. That takes an extra dose of ignorance and/or evil to do such a thing IMO.

 
This is one of the world's biggest intractable problems. A significant number of people on both sides in this conflict have no compromise victory conditions that are mutually exclusive of one another.
Yet Israel - under multiple different governments (even under Ariel Sharon!) has offered the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza numerous land for peace deal proposals.

Sure there are some very hard headed Israelis in government that never want to deal with the Palestinians, but it is simply not true to claim that one side has not tried to compromise.

Israel has a history of making major compromises starting with the release of thousands of Hamas fighters to release a few Israelis. Israel gave back all of the Sinai and forged a lasting peace with Egypt and Jordan and Israeli pulled every last Jew out of Gaza leaving massive infrastructure for a future Palestinian state to prosper - but Hamas decided to destroy that infrastructure and turned Gaza into a rocket factory.
 
It's very hard to tell in the short term which side is telling the truth and which is lying.
I believe the side that doesn't burn little children alive, rape and take hostages and commit daily war crimes by launching offensive weapons from schools, mosques and hospitals using their civilians as human shields.

I believe the side that isn't constantly caught lying about things like the Gaza hospital and inflating death tolls.
 
This is one of the world's biggest intractable problems. A significant number of people on both sides in this conflict have no compromise victory conditions that are mutually exclusive of one another. When even one side in a conflict is pig headed and unwilling to compromise in good faith a problem is not solvable, but when both sides have a high number of pig headed people unwilling to compromise, any solution is hopeless until people change.

This is true in a binary sense, but I believe the attribution of blame is more like 75% Arab / 25% Israeli. Media can cherry pick any amount from either side to make them look horrific. People needs to spend a lot of time reading to really make a decent assessment.

I went into my assessment as unbiased as I could.

Based on what I've read and observed, there has been a lot more give on the Israeli side historically. Starting very clearly of course before 1948, and then all the way to around 2000. The current status may be much more stubborn on both sides than previously.

Even now, Israel is trying to make peace agreements with Arab countries, which in fact may have partially been the motivation behind these attacks.
 
Breitbart and Opindia?
Please - check your sources: OpIndia - Bias and Credibility

And yes, I would call out Huffington Post and Mother Jones, altho the latter at least is more factual than either source you mentioned.
I prefaced my original comments by saying if true. Here is a source that ran with it even earlier with more detail.


Supposedly, it was also posted on the PA Ministry of Religious Affairs, Facebook page, Oct. 18, 2023.

One thing I've learned from my time in Israel and the Palestinian controlled areas was I almost never met a single Palestinian who didn't want Israel wiped from the face of the map. They have done a great job brainwashing the people, just like Russia did through their Pioneer groups (like the Boy Scouts) did, to dislike the US.
 
His post on Israel-Hamas Propaganda Went Viral

If you have less empathy towards victims of violence because of how you feel about their government, propaganda is working on you.

The Palestinians are at a disadvantage because they can't afford the technology Israel has. If the shoe was on the other foot and the Palestinians had the technological advantage, what would things look like?

When an oppressed group gains power there is a lot of anxiety among the former oppressors that the oppressed will round up the former oppressors and do terrible things to them. That happened when Apartheid ended in South Africa and it happened when a black man got elected president in the US. But in those cases nothing bad happened to the former oppressors.

From what many Palestinians have said publicly, the result of the Palestinians getting control probably wouldn't be as benevolent as the two examples above.

This is true in a binary sense, but I believe the attribution of blame is more like 75% Arab / 25% Israeli. Media can cherry pick any amount from either side to make them look horrific. People needs to spend a lot of time reading to really make a decent assessment.

I went into my assessment as unbiased as I could.

Based on what I've read and observed, there has been a lot more give on the Israeli side historically. Starting very clearly of course before 1948, and then all the way to around 2000. The current status may be much more stubborn on both sides than previously.

Even now, Israel is trying to make peace agreements with Arab countries, which in fact may have partially been the motivation behind these attacks.

Israel has had to cave in here and there to please the rest of the developed world. But they also have allowed settlers to encroach on Palestinian territory. The whole situation is such a morass I have never tried to figure out what the balance of blame is, but at a guess I would say it's probably closer to 50/50. Hard to say for sure though.
 
Beau of the Fifth Column explains US policy in the Israel/Hamas conflict.

Let's talk about Biden, diplomacy, and parallel tracks....

Biden is trying to get Israel to delay any potential ground offensive until the captives are returned.
[...] To Palestinian forces he's saying "Hey give me the people back and the we can talk to [Israel] about a full on cease-fire.
[...] A ground offensive means tanks, artillery, boots on the ground inside Palestinian territory. That's bad! My personal opinion is that should be avoided at all costs.
[...] Then you have the [US] military moving in, moving assets, stationing assets. That is in case the other stuff goes wrong. This is literally give peace a chance and I'll cover you in case it doesn't work out.
[...] The ground offensive is the [...] most likely spark that would cause [the conflict] to widen.
 
I prefaced my original comments by saying if true. Here is a source that ran with it even earlier with more detail.


Supposedly, it was also posted on the PA Ministry of Religious Affairs, Facebook page, Oct. 18, 2023.

One thing I've learned from my time in Israel and the Palestinian controlled areas was I almost never met a single Palestinian who didn't want Israel wiped from the face of the map. They have done a great job brainwashing the people, just like Russia did through their Pioneer groups (like the Boy Scouts) did, to dislike the US.
No info on PALwatch bias is available. However, the article you linked to actually confirms the OPPOSITE of the links you originally posted.
1698173687070.png
 
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No info on PALwatch bias is available. However, the article you linked to actually confirms the OPPOSITE of the links you originally posted.
I've learned something about bias in my lifetime; it is all a matter of perspective. I don't put much faith in any of the sources that talk about the supposed bias of a site. Just like how the fact checkers are supposedly neutral but often are the opposite and have an agenda.

Gone are the days when journalists did there jobs thoroughly and went after everyone with equal vigor. NYT used to be pretty balanced in the 70's and then drifted with an ideological viewpoint. Tell a lie often enough, and people will believe it. Tell a lie first and the truth may never catch up.