Plaid 21” rear tire woes - factory defect?

[canasion35]

Since I've owned my 2014 Performance+, both sets of Michelins have failed this way. They showed even tread wear. The part of the tire that delaminates never even touches the road. Running Falken Azenis now, we'll see how they hold up.

Which Falkens did you go with, the FK460 or 510’s?

 

[sonofagunn]

Which Falkens did you go with, the FK460 or 510’s?

510

 

[TSLA Pilot]

I'm still waiting for him to show me a single person that has had shims or arms installed and had an alignment (obviously not at Tesla) that are having this issue.

Asked for a single instance of it months ago and he still hasn't been able to provide one. You'd think out of the hundreds of people now, if not thousands, it would be easy to find just one person having the same issue, if it was in fact (which it is not) a Michelin defect.

Not relevant, in any way.

Hundreds to thousands of 21" Michelin OEM tires, mounted on Plaids, have had inner sidewall failures, with only a small fraction captured here, yet we're on Page 85 . . . .

The expectation (apparently common on this thread) that every Tesla Plaid owner should be required to modify their suspensions as some sort of a "fix" for a ubiquitous tire defect, a defect where, in 99% of the cases ONLY impacts the Michelin 21" OEM tire (vs. the Pirelli OEM tire), is patently absurd.

The "hive mind" here is remarkable.

The Michelins need to be recalled ASAP, before someone gets hurt.

 

[bkcyk]

Not relevant, in any way.

Hundreds to thousands of 21" Michelin OEM tires, mounted on Plaids, have had inner sidewall failures, with only a small fraction captured here, yet we're on Page 85 . . . .

The expectation (apparently common on this thread) that every Tesla Plaid owner should be required to modify their suspensions as some sort of a "fix" for a ubiquitous tire defect, a defect where, in 99% of the cases ONLY impacts the Michelin 21" OEM tire (vs. the Pirelli OEM tire), is patently absurd.

The "hive mind" here is remarkable.

The Michelins need to be recalled ASAP, before someone gets hurt.

Ok dude give us PS4s freeeeeedommmmmm

 

[canasion35]

Hundreds to thousands of 21" Michelin OEM tires, mounted on Plaids, have had inner sidewall failures

How are you accurately tracking the hundreds to thousands claim - or is that an approximate assumed number

 

[Sam1]

Not relevant, in any way.

Hundreds to thousands of 21" Michelin OEM tires, mounted on Plaids, have had inner sidewall failures, with only a small fraction captured here, yet we're on Page 85 . . . .

The expectation (apparently common on this thread) that every Tesla Plaid owner should be required to modify their suspensions as some sort of a "fix" for a ubiquitous tire defect, a defect where, in 99% of the cases ONLY impacts the Michelin 21" OEM tire (vs. the Pirelli OEM tire), is patently absurd.

The "hive mind" here is remarkable.

The Michelins need to be recalled ASAP, before someone gets hurt.

What do you mean it's not relevant in any way?

You state that Michelin tires are defective and that other brand tires are not suffering "sidewall failure" (although none of the sidewalls are failing).

You also state that asking for a single example of a Michelin tire failing after mitigating the actual issue with camber arms and an alignment, is irrelevant.

So you are now asserting that camber arms and an alignment somehow fix a Michelin tire defect? I'm sure I speak for everyone here when I ask you to please elaborate on this one...I'll bring the popcorn.

 

[Bull]

The statistics were collected from the same research that asserts it was sidewall failure when clearly none of the sidewalls have failed.

Hmmmm, maybe internal sidewall failure is causing a change in road contact. That could lead to the inner edge wear. It would also indicate defective tire design.

 

[Sam1]

Hmmmm, maybe internal sidewall failure is causing a change in road contact. That could lead to the inner edge wear. It would also indicate defective tire design.

That makes no sense if camber arms and alignments are fixing the issue.

And also, there is no sidewall failure of any sort. The excess wear is typical of too much toe out and can be verified by the thousands of online photos showing examples of tire wear with excess toe out.

 

[Bull]

That makes no sense if camber arms and alignments are fixing the issue.

And also, there is no sidewall failure of any sort. The excess wear is typical of too much toe out and can be verified by the thousands of online photos showing examples of tire wear with excess toe out.

You say no sidewall failure of any sort but Michelin says there is. There could certainly be a loss of rigidity in the sidewall. I’m not saying that’s what it is, just saying that a blanket statement like yours is not helpful. Especially when Michelin says the opposite.

I have gone through 2-3 sets of rears with inner edge wear after installing camber arms. My rear camber improved from -2.7° and -2.9° to -1.3° both sides. My rear toe is at 0.05”

With that camber and toe (in low of course) I should not be having inner edge wear/failure.

 

[canasion35]

You say no sidewall failure of any sort but Michelin says there is. There could certainly be a loss of rigidity in the sidewall. I’m not saying that’s what it is, just saying that a blanket statement like yours is not helpful. Especially when Michelin says the opposite.

I have gone through 2-3 sets of rears with inner edge wear after installing camber arms. My rear camber improved from -2.7° and -2.9° to -1.3° both sides. My rear toe is at 0.05”

With that camber and toe (in low of course) I should not be having inner edge wear/failure.

NO SHOOTING THE BULL @Sam1 - joking aside...

It'd be nice to read through any material where Michelin states or elludes to the loss of rigidity on the PS4S'. Can i find those sources within this thread?

 

[Bull]

NO SHOOTING THE BULL @Sam1 - joking aside...

It'd be nice to read through any material where Michelin states or elludes to the loss of rigidity on the PS4S'. Can i find those sources within this thread?

I just proposed loss of rigidity as an example of a sidewall failure that may not be obviously apparent and could still be related to the failures we are seeing. 100% conjecture on my part.

 

[Kohley]

You say no sidewall failure of any sort but Michelin says there is. There could certainly be a loss of rigidity in the sidewall. I’m not saying that’s what it is, just saying that a blanket statement like yours is not helpful. Especially when Michelin says the opposite.

I have gone through 2-3 sets of rears with inner edge wear after installing camber arms. My rear camber improved from -2.7° and -2.9° to -1.3° both sides. My rear toe is at 0.05”

With that camber and toe (in low of course) I should not be having inner edge wear/failure.

In my opinion, -1.3 is still too much negative camber, and .05, I am assuming that is toe in, is also not enough. if its toe out, that will cause inner edge tire wear. -.5 camber and .10 toe in would likely fix the problem.

 

[Bull]

In my opinion, -1.3 is still too much negative camber, and .05, I am assuming that is toe in, is also not enough. if its toe out, that will cause inner edge tire wear. -.5 camber and .10 toe in would likely fix the problem.

Yes. I'm going to move my camber to the -0.8° to -1.0° range and my toe to 0.10". Will see if that helps. The current setting did not have a significant effect on my inner edge wear.

 

[Sam1]

You say no sidewall failure of any sort but Michelin says there is. There could certainly be a loss of rigidity in the sidewall. I’m not saying that’s what it is, just saying that a blanket statement like yours is not helpful. Especially when Michelin says the opposite.

I have gone through 2-3 sets of rears with inner edge wear after installing camber arms. My rear camber improved from -2.7° and -2.9° to -1.3° both sides. My rear toe is at 0.05”

With that camber and toe (in low of course) I should not be having inner edge wear/failure.

If the sidewall was losing rigidity, the wear strip wider and would be more up on the sidewall where it is collapsing. not located specifically on the corner of the treadblock on a thin strip. This is also why I laugh when people are saying to run more pressure in their tire to fix the issue...no, that just creates an even stiffer corner, isolating the wear to an even smaller area.

Your toe is still too low. at 0.05 (which is the max cutoff listed by tesla), you're going deep into the negatives with dynamic toe considered. i run my rear toe closer to 0.30, which is where it should be unless you're using a road course configuration.

Again, people need to remember that this is a near 5000 pound car with 1000whp. The amount of force that is put on the suspension is astronomical. There's obviously an issue with toe out under force, so why would you set the car to be at the literal minimum recommended spec?

Edit: Just seen you were raising toe to 0.10, dude just bump it up to 0.20 on the rear (the tesla recommended max is 0.35). you won't notice any stability changes, other than the rear end lightening up a little bit. Would recommend leaving camber at a minimum of -1.0. I tried a -0.8 all around last year and had to add more camber back into it because it made the car pretty floaty.

 

[lbowroom]

You say no sidewall failure of any sort but Michelin says there is. There could certainly be a loss of rigidity in the sidewall. I’m not saying that’s what it is, just saying that a blanket statement like yours is not helpful. Especially when Michelin says the opposite.

I have gone through 2-3 sets of rears with inner edge wear after installing camber arms. My rear camber improved from -2.7° and -2.9° to -1.3° both sides. My rear toe is at 0.05”

With that camber and toe (in low of course) I should not be having inner edge wear/failure.

if that's in medium height it's not enough toe to compensate in low when it squats and toes out. I see that it's in low, but still concerned what toe actually becomes under load. Tesla set mine to 0.2 after my track pack install so they do know something. I've reduced that since I have lower control arms that fix that bushing flex.

 

[lbowroom]

In my opinion, -1.3 is still too much negative camber, and .05, I am assuming that is toe in, is also not enough. if its toe out, that will cause inner edge tire wear. -.5 camber and .10 toe in would likely fix the problem.

I'm running 1.2 all around and am actually wearing more on the outside of my fronts with very even on the rear. If you are doing anything but hypermiling then it's not too much. Way too little for actual track time.

 

[Kohley]

If the sidewall was losing rigidity, the wear strip wider and would be more up on the sidewall where it is collapsing. not located specifically on the corner of the treadblock on a thin strip. This is also why I laugh when people are saying to run more pressure in their tire to fix the issue...no, that just creates an even stiffer corner, isolating the wear to an even smaller area.

Your toe is still too low. at 0.05 (which is the max cutoff listed by tesla), you're going deep into the negatives with dynamic toe considered. i run my rear toe closer to 0.30, which is where it should be unless you're using a road course configuration.

Again, people need to remember that this is a near 5000 pound car with 1000whp. The amount of force that is put on the suspension is astronomical. There's obviously an issue with toe out under force, so why would you set the car to be at the literal minimum recommended spec?

Edit: Just seen you were raising toe to 0.10, dude just bump it up to 0.20 on the rear (the tesla recommended max is 0.35). you won't notice any stability changes, other than the rear end lightening up a little bit. Would recommend leaving camber at a minimum of -1.0. I tried a -0.8 all around last year and had to add more camber back into it because it made the car pretty floaty.

.3 seems like a lot of toe in, .10 to .15 should be enough, the suspension does n't move enough to cause toe out from these settings. The floating you feel likely has to do with rebound control in the shocks, try advanced setting at max sport, that should help.

 

[Bull]

.3 seems like a lot of toe in, .10 to .15 should be enough, the suspension does n't move enough to cause toe out from these settings. The floating you feel likely has to do with rebound control in the shocks, try advanced setting at max sport, that should help.

I will try .10 or .15 but probably not any more. I could be wrong but .30 seems like it's getting into the range where the tire starts scrubbing.

 

[Sam1]

.3 seems like a lot of toe in, .10 to .15 should be enough, the suspension does n't move enough to cause toe out from these settings. The floating you feel likely has to do with rebound control in the shocks, try advanced setting at max sport, that should help.

.30 is not a lot and the suspension setting has nothing to do with it. I've got a lot of aftermarket bushings and arms installed. The reason I did that was we made videos of it with the stock setup and you can watch the tire go toe out with all the stock parts. After upgrading everything, the videos show there's no movement now, but the car still handles better with .25 toe on the rear, 0.05 on the front and -1.0 to -1.2 camber for drag racing.

Unplugged was actually surprised to see how much dynamic toe out occurred in the video all the way up into the triple digits.

 

[Sam1]

Here's what mine is currently set to. I cut off the right side because there were bad readings on it after we put the car back on the rack after a few launches to make a caster adjustment. I know if I post the entire sheet, people won't read what I say about ignoring the incorrect right side numbers and they'll want to inform me that I have a bad alignment, so it's easier just to show the left.