Model 3 "Performance Brake Calipers" just red or different altogether?

[brianman]

Just curious. How many people and how often are they going 146+ mph. Seems kind of pointless. Most cars top speeds are electronically limited but they are usually capable of exceeding it.

My Tesla observed max so far is (only) 143mph (in P85D S) -- once. I've been above 130mph many times though.

 

[Got-EMF]

My Jan 2013 P85 maxs out at 132mph.

And it has black calipers!

The alloy pedals and carbon fiber trim do make it feel faster thou!

 

[Perry]

I find it even harder to believe Tesla would have different caliper sets for

1) rear drive
2) AWD,
3) performance
4) performance plus.

They don't. They just have two. The performance calipers that come with the $5000 performance upgrade available only on performance base and everything else uses the standard calipers.

 

[Perry]

To all who say the performance model must have enhanced brakes to match without the $5000 upgrade I say this. The standard brakes are already good enough to stop the car beyond what the tires can do. The tires are the weak link here.

Now why then the enhanced calipers you might ask for the performance upgrade. I have an answer which is in line with what Elon tweeted. The performance calipers and the 20" rims, as he states, will only make a difference on the race track. There you brake and accelerate constantly for extended periods of time as you negotiate each turn which can cause a lesser brake system to not have enough time to cool off and overheat.

I can't think of a scenario where those conditions can be found in public streets so you will not need the upgraded calipers and performance upgrade unless you plan to race on the track or like the esthetics of the upgrades.

 

[mongo]

Just curious. How many people and how often are they going 146+ mph. Seems kind of pointless. Most cars top speeds are electronically limited but they are usually capable of exceeding it.

It depends on if the top speed change is purely a software cap, or the result of increased power availability.
Much of the preference of the L version I have read is due to reduced passing times.

@Knightshade do you think the pedal force required to stop the car in a fixed distance will be higher or lower with the performance brakes vs stock?

 

[Garlan Garner]

I'm still waiting for someone to prove to me that Red Brake Calipers don't stop faster than grey ones. <-----sarcasm.

I'm also waiting for someone to prove to me that they grey ones out there right now don't stop the car "fast enough". <-----non sarcasm

Oh yeah....that's right.....there are no red ones out there yet...….hmmmm…..

 

[mongo]

I'm still waiting for someone to prove to me that Red Brake Calipers don't stop faster than grey ones. <-----sarcasm.

I'm also waiting for someone to prove to me that they grey ones out there right now don't stop the car "fast enough". <-----non sarcasm

Oh yeah....that's right.....there are no red ones out there yet...….hmmmm…..

They aren't actually red, they just look it due to the rapidly changing distance between the observer and the car. (SpaceX package indeed).

 

[Garlan Garner]

They aren't actually red, they just look it due to the rapidly changing distance between the observer and the car. (SpaceX package indeed).

What I do know is this:

Red brake calipers go faster than grey ones when going downhill in reverse. <----additional sarcasm.



You have to have fun amidst nonsense sometimes.

 

[juanmedina]

To all who say the performance model must have enhanced brakes to match without the $5000 upgrade I say this. The standard brakes are already good enough to stop the car beyond what the tires can do. The tires are the weak link here.

Now why then the enhanced calipers you might ask for the performance upgrade. I have an answer which is in line with what Elon tweeted. The performance calipers and the 20" rims, as he states, will only make a difference on the race track. There you brake and accelerate constantly for extended periods of time as you negotiate each turn which can cause a lesser brake system to not have enough time to cool off and overheat.

I can't think of a scenario where those conditions can be found in public streets so you will not need the upgraded calipers and performance upgrade unless you plan to race on the track or like the esthetics of the upgrades.

The red paint on the calipers is a new thing. They probably already have hundreds of set of unpainted sets laying around. Do you think they are going to send them back for paint? No way .also the mule sighting of the performance version show unpainted upgraded brakes

 

[Knightshade]

Why would you buy a 3.5 second 0-60 car that does 155 and not take it to the track?

You'd have to go ask the 99% of people who buy such cars and never take it to a race track I guess?

Seriously- almost nobody goes to a race track, compared to the number of "performance" car buyers...and most of the ones who do are going to a drag strip where stock brakes are just fine for a single stop from 1/8th or 1/4 mile speeds.

TONS of people like to "beat" someone at a stoplight though.

That's why the sales pitch for the P is 3.5 0-60, not "drops 2 seconds off your lap time at Laguna Seca"

No one needs to accelerate that fast in normal driving.

Again you seem to vastly underestimate the amount of stoplight racing and cutting people off on highways that "performance" buyers actually do, versus rarely if ever hitting a race track.

Better yet, why would you have no plans to buy one but try to convince everyone again and again they don't need performance brakes?

No idea. Since I'm not doing that I'm not sure why you're asking.

Once again you've gotten your facts completely wrong....

1) I've said if Tesla came out and told us the P model actually offered more than just a software unlocked improved 0-60 and (for 5k more) brakes you don't need except on a track, and 20 inch wheels I don't want, then I would be inclined to upgrade my order from an AWD to a P....like if it came with a significantly improved suspension and they put the PS 4S on the 18s with a P order that'd be a lot more appealing to me than 11k for a software unlock of power.

2) I've said you do need performance brakes if you drive a car on a race track. ANY car, not just the P model. Because that's when brakes matter. The only time I said you do not need them is "normal" (ie street) driving. On any model. Because they won't do anything to stop the car any shorter than the stock brakes can. And that how "quick" a car is has literally nothing to do with what kind of brakes it needs, since you're not using the power of the car once you move from accelerator to brake pedal, because that's how physics works (see again you being incorrect about momentum)

Not sure how you keep getting what people are actually saying so consistently wrong.

I might not have a degree in physics but any layman knows that when a car company is trying to beat an M3 on the track, they put performance brakes on the car.

Right. Which Musk already said he's doing weeks ago. And everyone agrees is useful on a track. So not sure what point you think you're making here....

It depends on if the top speed change is purely a software cap, or the result of increased power availability.
Much of the preference of the L version I have read is due to reduced passing times.

Since both the 145 and 155 versions have the same 0-60 time I can't imaging it's anything but a software cap.... which is almost always what speed limiters are... (and for some cars you can just remove it yourself with the right software and a laptop with an OBD2 cable...obviously that won't work with Tesla though)

@Knightshade do you think the pedal force required to stop the car in a fixed distance will be higher or lower with the performance brakes vs stock?

I think that depends entirely on Tesla.... given how much electronic control of the brakes are available to them they could play with the "feel" of the system pretty broadly. If they want them to feel basically identical that wouldn't be too hard...if on the other hand they want the performance brakes to "feel" more bitey that's easy to do too.... so we'll have to wait and see which they go with (and to what degree). Either way from street speeds both will stop in the same distance, while on a race track the performance ones would be able to maintain that stopping distance over more repeated high speed stops.

 

[Wooloomooloo]

I think..... If you can get to 60 MPH in 2 seconds as opposed to 6 seconds would require the same brakes to get back down to 0 MPH. It really does not take more brakes to get from 60 to 0 just because you get up to 60MPH quicker on the acceleration side.

Also....getting to 60 MPH quicker should mean that you have more room to get back to 0 MPH.

That's incredibly naive. Conventional wisdom says if you increase power, you should increase braking capability, and for good reason. Anyone who's been a car enthusiast and tuner will tell you that. If you can accelerate harder, at any given point in time you are potentially going faster, and should have brakes to match your power. Whether it's 'spirited' driving in the canyons or actual driving on closed course.

In fact, if you get to 60 in 2 seconds, you DO need better brakes than if it takes 6 seconds to get there, because there is far less thinking time to see dangers or other issues if you accelerate that hard. Also if you're on a canyon road, the corner is going to come much more quickly and you'll be going faster when you get there.

Now I know the retort is along the lines of 'well on the road if you obey the limits (or drive sensibly), you're never going to need performance brakes' and that's true. But if you're going to obey the limits, most cars with more than 200bhp are kind of pointless anyway.

I think a lot of posts are just people justifying their decision either way - can't we be hoary for people who made their decision rather than implying some kind of ignorance if they made a decision one way or another?

 

[Msjulie]

The performance calipers that come with the $5000 performance upgrade available only on performance base and everything else uses the standard calipers.

I'd love to believe this, or any fact actually, but I have yet to see any concrete evidence at all other than a picture with red calipers... sigh

 

[juanmedina]

That's incredibly naive. Conventional wisdom says if you increase power, you should increase braking capability, and for good reason. Anyone who's been a car enthusiast and tuner will tell you that. If you can accelerate harder, at any given point in time you are potentially going faster, and should have brakes to match your power. Whether it's 'spirited' driving in the canyons or actual driving on closed course.

In fact, if you get to 60 in 2 seconds, you DO need better brakes than if it takes 6 seconds to get there, because there is far less thinking time to see dangers or other issues if you accelerate that hard. Also if you're on a canyon road, the corner is going to come much more quickly and you'll be going faster when you get there.

Now I know the retort is along the lines of 'well on the road if you obey the limits (or drive sensibly), you're never going to need performance brakes' and that's true. But if you're going to obey the limits, most cars with more than 200bhp are kind of pointless anyway.

I think a lot of posts are just people justifying their decision either way - can't we be hoary for people who made their decision rather than implying some kind of ignorance if they made a decision one way or another?

I already tried to explaining the same point on another thread but I got no where.... it is a waste of time .

The performance version of a car from all other makes get upgraded brakes and they do it for a good reason. From BMW 340i to the BMW M3, from the A4 to the RS4, from the WRX to the STi, from the Honda Civic Si to the Type R etc etc... They all get larger calipers usually with more pistons and bigger rotors. They are performance oriented cars. .

The same goes for suspension and tires.

 

[Knightshade]

That's incredibly naive. Conventional wisdom says if you increase power, you should increase braking capability, and for good reason.

Can you cite that "good reason" using actual physics?

Because actual physics disagrees with you.

Once you switch from acceleratin to braking, the power of the car makes literally no difference

A 200 hp car and a 600 hp car, with no difference other than power, will stop in exactly the same distance in a panic stop all else being equal, because both are, always, limited by the tires, which are the things that actually stop the car


The only cars that "need" better brakes are cars that are driven in extremely atypical conditions where you'll be repeatedly braking, over and over again, from triple-digit speeds.

Which for 99% of car owners is...never... and for the other 1% is almost exclusively on a closed course.

And for that 1% they need better brakes regardless of how much power the car makes. Brakes don't magically gain super fade resistance because the engine makes more or less power after all.

This is why it's baffling that people keep insisting a car with "more power" magically needs "better" brakes. This is provably false.

In fact, if you get to 60 in 2 seconds, you DO need better brakes than if it takes 6 seconds to get there

Then it's especially weird that the Model S P100D, arguably the quickest to 60 of any production car in the world, has the same brakes the standard non-P tesla has.

Probably because Tesla is aware how brakes actually work, and they know if you're stopping from 60 it's totally irrelevant how quickly you got there and you'll stop in exactly the same distance with stock brakes or the biggest most powerful brakes you fit on the car- because that's how physics works.

Now I know the retort is along the lines of 'well on the road if you obey the limits (or drive sensibly), you're never going to need performance brakes' and that's true.

Yup.

But if you're going to obey the limits, most cars with more than 200bhp are kind of pointless anyway.

I mean...no, they're not.

Just look back at when the guy said "who buys a quick car and doesn't track it?" and basically every reply was from exactly those people- who care way way way more about beating people in stoplight races than they do about how fast the car goes around a closed course race track.

Again that's why the 0-60 time is the primary marketing mention- not how quick it laps Laguna Seca or something....because massively more people care about, and will actually do, the first one than the second.

And none of those people need better brakes because it'll do literally nothing for them.

The tiny fraction in the other group certainly do need better brakes- regardless of getting the P upgrades or not (as evidenced by the dude who recently DID do Laguna Seca in another thread and found brake upgrades super useful there- even though he was in a regular RWD Model 3)

I think a lot of posts are just people justifying their decision either way - can't we be hoary for people who made their decision rather than implying some kind of ignorance if they made a decision one way or another?

Wouldn't it be better to have accurate facts so people still making decisions (after all, nobody has taken delivery of a P or AWD yet) can understand when a given feature does, or does not, make a functional difference?


Personally I think the idea case would've been for Tesla to offer the brake upgrade as a standalone option.... so that people buying a RWD Model 3 and planning to track it could take advantage of a feature that'd actually be useful to them....

and so that people buying a Model 3 P who do not plan to track it wouldn't have to pay for an option they'd get no value out of.

The performance version of a car from all other makes get upgraded brakes and they do it for a good reason.

Marketing mainly.

Same reason some exotic cars put massive drilled rotors on even though drilled is a demonstrably inferior brake technology.

They know most buyers aren't ever going to use the car on a track so it won't matter much, but they LOOK sexy and people "expect" big brakes on fast cars even if they won't do anything useful the way most folks actually drive such cars.

The same goes for suspension and tires.

It really doesn't though. Tires actually improve stopping distance in every situation (and performance, handling, etc). Likewise suspension impacts performance and feel of the car in all conditions, not just a race track.

Those are substantive upgrades regardless of if you track the car or not.

as I said, if the P has advertised a significantly better suspension (like magnetic shocks or something, bigger sway bars, etc) and offered the PS 4S on the 18s, I'd have been way more inclined to upgrade to that from AWD than if they're just offering "big brakes" that are useless off a race track.

 

[Msjulie]

Once you switch from acceleratin to braking, the power of the car makes literally no difference

A 200 hp car and a 600 hp car, with no difference other than power, will stop in exactly the same distance in a panic stop all else being equal, because both are, always, limited by the tires, which are the things that actually stop the car

Yes in a pure scientific sense but 1) i doubt self driving will do crazy accelerations anyway 2) but people do and if you can stomp on a pedal and cover more distance quicker than you thought and attain a higher speed, your expectation is better brakes to get your @ss out of the situation and/or also because it's more fun.

That may sound like irrational reasoning but it isn't invalid and plenty of cars with increased acceleration (and higher top speed like this car) have better brakes for just these kinds of reasons

BTW totally agree with the tire comment - it's pretty lame to me actually that the options are aggressive 20" rims with pretty nice tires or 'whimpy' 18" with performance-compromised tires on the performance version of the car... That strikes me as a not-so-subtle way to force you to get those 20" rims...

 

[mongo]

Since both the 145 and 155 versions have the same 0-60 time I can't imaging it's anything but a software cap.... which is almost always what speed limiters are...

That's a useful piece of data, thanks! Given it's all SW, they could adjust different power bands,but that seems like too much effort.

I think that depends entirely on Tesla.... given how much electronic control of the brakes are available to them they could play with the "feel" of the system pretty broadly. If they want them to feel basically identical that wouldn't be too hard...if on the other hand they want the performance brakes to "feel" more bitey that's easy to do too.... so we'll have to wait and see which they go with (and to what degree). Either way from street speeds both will stop in the same distance, while on a race track the performance ones would be able to maintain that stopping distance over more repeated high speed stops.

I'm being an oddball and thinking of other reasons one might like higher performance (pedal to stopping power) brakes. Totally agree tires are limiting factor if max pedal force is available.

The braking force my truck needs to stop will put you through the windshield of my wife's car. I can lock up either, but she much prefers her's (just not for the first few stops when I drive it.. Same deal with the old school manual Lynx vs vacuume assist Escort.

 

[juanmedina]

Can you cite that "good reason" using actual physics?

Because actual physics disagrees with you.

Once you switch from acceleratin to braking, the power of the car makes literally no difference

A 200 hp car and a 600 hp car, with no difference other than power, will stop in exactly the same distance in a panic stop all else being equal, because both are, always, limited by the tires, which are the things that actually stop the car


The only cars that "need" better brakes are cars that are driven in extremely atypical conditions where you'll be repeatedly braking, over and over again, from triple-digit speeds.

Which for 99% of car owners is...never... and for the other 1% is almost exclusively on a closed course.

And for that 1% they need better brakes regardless of how much power the car makes. Brakes don't magically gain super fade resistance because the engine makes more or less power after all.

This is why it's baffling that people keep insisting a car with "more power" magically needs "better" brakes. This is provably false.





Then it's especially weird that the Model S P100D, arguably the quickest to 60 of any production car in the world, has the same brakes the standard non-P tesla has.

Probably because Tesla is aware how brakes actually work, and they know if you're stopping from 60 it's totally irrelevant how quickly you got there and you'll stop in exactly the same distance with stock brakes or the biggest most powerful brakes you fit on the car- because that's how physics works.




Yup.



I mean...no, they're not.

Just look back at when the guy said "who buys a quick car and doesn't track it?" and basically every reply was from exactly those people- who care way way way more about beating people in stoplight races than they do about how fast the car goes around a closed course race track.

Again that's why the 0-60 time is the primary marketing mention- not how quick it laps Laguna Seca or something....because massively more people care about, and will actually do, the first one than the second.

And none of those people need better brakes because it'll do literally nothing for them.

The tiny fraction in the other group certainly do need better brakes- regardless of getting the P upgrades or not (as evidenced by the dude who recently DID do Laguna Seca in another thread and found brake upgrades super useful there- even though he was in a regular RWD Model 3)






Wouldn't it be better to have accurate facts so people still making decisions (after all, nobody has taken delivery of a P or AWD yet) can understand when a given feature does, or does not, make a functional difference?


Personally I think the idea case would've been for Tesla to offer the brake upgrade as a standalone option.... so that people buying a RWD Model 3 and planning to track it could take advantage of a feature that'd actually be useful to them....

and so that people buying a Model 3 P who do not plan to track it wouldn't have to pay for an option they'd get no value out of.




Marketing mainly.

Same reason some exotic cars put massive drilled rotors on even though drilled is a demonstrably inferior brake technology.

They know most buyers aren't ever going to use the car on a track so it won't matter much, but they LOOK sexy and people "expect" big brakes on fast cars even if they won't do anything useful the way most folks actually drive such cars.




It really doesn't though. Tires actually improve stopping distance in every situation (and performance, handling, etc). Likewise suspension impacts performance and feel of the car in all conditions, not just a race track.

Those are substantive upgrades regardless of if you track the car or not.

as I said, if the P has advertised a significantly better suspension (like magnetic shocks or something, bigger sway bars, etc) and offered the PS 4S on the 18s, I'd have been way more inclined to upgrade to that from AWD than if they're just offering "big brakes" that are useless off a race track.

How do you know they are not upgrading the suspension and the tires for 18" wheels.

I think it would be laughable to sell a 65k performance car with all season tires.
Just like I said that 78k for the performance version was too much and that Tesla would adjust the price I think Tesla is going to ship the base model 3 performance version with performance oriented hardware all around. We will find out soon enough; I already have aftetmarket wheels and sticky tires for my car anyway .

 

[Knightshade]

Yes in a pure scientific sense but 1) i doubt self driving will do crazy accelerations anyway 2) but people do and if you can stomp on a pedal and cover more distance quicker than you thought and attain a higher speed, your expectation is better brakes to get your @ss out of the situation and/or also because it's more fun.

But again, the stock brake stop in exactly the same distance the "better" ones do in that situation.

The brakes don't stop the car- the tires do.

I highly highly recommend this article for anybody who thinks "better brakes" reduce stopping distance (they don't- and physically can't)

GRM Pulp Friction

It's written by a guy who designs braking systems for Stoptech and major car manufacturers, has literally written books on the topic, and teaches SAE master classes on braking.

it explains what each element of a braking system does and does not do, and why upgrading your brakes can do many things for you (esp. for track use) but reducing stopping distance isn't one of them.


GRM Pulp Friction
That may sound like irrational reasoning but it isn't invalid and plenty of cars with increased acceleration (and higher top speed like this car) have better brakes for just these kinds of reasons[/QUOTE]

I mean again, outside of a track, they really don't.

And few owners actually track the car.

It's marketing/looks for the other 99% of owners....see also the fervor over RED calipers!

BTW totally agree with the tire comment - it's pretty lame to me actually that the options are aggressive 20" rims with pretty nice tires or 'whimpy' 18" with performance-compromised tires on the performance version of the car... That strikes me as a not-so-subtle way to force you to get those 20" rims...

Yup. And I bet if it turns out both versions get better brakes you'll see among the few who do track their Ps the guys who bought the 18s and swapped the same tires on for $1000 beating the guys who paid 5k more for the 20s (driver skill being equal). Heck I'm "just" getting an AWD (barring some revelations about suspension and such on the P) and I'm swapping the crap all seasons for PS4s as soon as I get the car.

 

[Knightshade]

How do you know they are not upgrading the suspension and the tires for 18" wheels.

Because you would expect them to mention that when ordering the thing. 0 mention of it. And they don't upgrade the suspension on the X/S for P models either.

Lack of those are a major reason I didn't give them an extra $11,000 in fact.

And if they WERE suddenly going to be able to ship the 18s with PS4s they'd want to offer that as an option to non-P buyers too to make more profit- but they don't.

(the 20s with sport tires on the other hand ARE an added option for all cars as a standalone purchase, and have been since march)

I think it would be laughable to sell a 65k performance car with all season tires.

You can easily get the AWD up to that price and they definitely are selling that with all seasons.

I agree it's laughable, but it appears to be an attempt to drive people toward paying another 5k.

That's also why I think the 5k upgrade gets you brakes and the base model doesn't... because otherwise you're paying 5k for.... tires and rims...that were 4k (without having to NOT also get free 18s) before this. Oh, plus a spoiler and AL pedals and a software top speed unlock. So the 5k package is pretty terrible if it's not required for the brakes.

 

[Msjulie]

Heck I'm "just" getting an AWD (barring some revelations about suspension and such on the P) and I'm swapping the crap all seasons for PS4s as soon as I get the car.

Well the swapping part is me - i don't want 20", too much curbage potential in our house.

Disclosure - I used to do SCCA racing so I'm very particular about my brakes and tires and wheel weights...