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LEO Space Station with Artificial Gravity (w/Discussion of effects on the human body)

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Eric Berger: Meet the space billionaire who is interested in something other than rockets

McCaleb's space habitation company, Vast, emerged publicly last fall with a plan to build space stations that featured artificial gravity. This was significant because NASA and most other space agencies around the world have devoted little time to developing systems for artificial gravity in space, which may be important for long-term human habitation due to the deleterious effects of microgravity experienced by astronauts on the International Space Station. Vast boasted three technical advisers who were major players in the success of SpaceX—Hans Koenigsmann, Will Heltsley, and Yang Li—but did not offer too much information about its plans.
And there still isn’t much information but it’s fun to think about. I’ve been waiting over five decades now. It certainly won’t be this big, but it has to be at least several hundred meters in diameter.

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And yet there are clearly many people who want to go there. So, to each their own!

In my opinion, people who want to settle as colonists on Mars simply do not understand what life would be like there. Raising kids there would be the worst possible form of child abuse. The people who signed up for Mars One had no idea what they would have been getting into.

Going to Mars for a limited time as a researcher would be a thousand times more strenuous and dangerous than spending a winter season on Antarctica, but for someone with the necessary skills, who is truly dedicated to the advancement of knowledge, I could understand it.

If I had the opportunity to make a trip to LEO and hang out in a rotating space station with artificial gravity I would gladly give up a significant fraction of my worldly assets to do so. Actually, I would happily spend a lot of money just to go to orbit for a few hours.

I can understand this. I don't share the feeling, but I understand it. But there's a world of difference between a brief trip to LEO, and committing to spending the rest of your life, and the entirety of all your descendants' lives, in a virtual hell.
 
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In my opinion, people who want to settle as colonists on Mars simply do not understand what life would be like there. Raising kids there would be the worst possible form of child abuse. The people who signed up for Mars One had no idea what they would have been getting into.

Going to Mars for a limited time as a researcher would be a thousand times more strenuous and dangerous than spending a winter season on Antarctica, but for someone with the necessary skills, who is truly dedicated to the advancement of knowledge, I could understand it.



I can understand this. I don't share the feeling, but I understand it. But there's a world of difference between a brief trip to LEO, and committing to spending the rest of your life, and the entirety of all your descendants' lives, in a virtual hell.

The curious thing is that a large low earth orbit space station with artificial gravity, gives you the vast majority of what people say they're trying to get from Mars. That is to say the continuation of the human race should anything happen on earth. I'm always amazed at the Sci-Fi is where people spend 20,000 years going to somewhere else in order to escape the problem that clears up on Earth in 100 years.
 
Raising kids there would be the worst possible form of child abuse
I appreciate your larger point. I don't fully agree with it, but I do agree with the idea that people thinking Mars is sort of like difficult camping, living in the Sahara or at one of the poles -- yeah, I think you're right there.

The disagree is that whatever you were going for with this comment, at least for me, subtracts dramatically from the rest of what you had to say. I can't take it literally - I need little effort to come up with instances that are dramatically worse, and that I suspect you would agree would actually be worse. But maybe not.

As hyperbole, again at least for me, it doesn't work. I think you probably get the effect you were looking for with "would be .. child abuse". That idea is already jarring for me, and something that gets me thinking differently from what I've previously thought.

(EDIT to add: I rarely Disagree, partly because I also require myself to reply and explain myself.)
 
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It's refreshing that we have these entrepreneur billionaires come up with such novel ideas such as artificial gravity for their space station. These world governments with their hundreds of billions of dollars in annual budgets think so small with their combined puny-ass space station that's too small to leverage artificial gravity....
 
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I appreciate your larger point. I don't fully agree with it, but I do agree with the idea that people thinking Mars is sort of like difficult camping, living in the Sahara or at one of the poles -- yeah, I think you're right there.

The disagree is that whatever you were going for with this comment, at least for me, subtracts dramatically from the rest of what you had to say. I can't take it literally - I need little effort to come up with instances that are dramatically worse, and that I suspect you would agree would actually be worse. But maybe not.

As hyperbole, again at least for me, it doesn't work. I think you probably get the effect you were looking for with "would be .. child abuse". That idea is already jarring for me, and something that gets me thinking differently from what I've previously thought.

(EDIT to add: I rarely Disagree, partly because I also require myself to reply and explain myself.)

Perhaps I was being hyperbolic when I called raising kids on Mars "the worst possible form of child abuse." Sure, burning your kids every day with red-hot pokers would be worse. But of the things that some people discuss unashamedly as things they'd consider doing, or tolerate somebody else doing, there is nothing worse.
 
In my opinion, people who want to settle as colonists on Mars simply do not understand what life would be like there. Raising kids there would be the worst possible form of child abuse. The people who signed up for Mars One had no idea what they would have been getting into.

Going to Mars for a limited time as a researcher would be a thousand times more strenuous and dangerous than spending a winter season on Antarctica, but for someone with the necessary skills, who is truly dedicated to the advancement of knowledge, I could understand it.



I can understand this. I don't share the feeling, but I understand it. But there's a world of difference between a brief trip to LEO, and committing to spending the rest of your life, and the entirety of all your descendants' lives, in a virtual hell.
My whole thing is this: Do we honestly believe that the current generation of little narcissists that we are raising today will be capable of putting themselves and their own desires aside in order to advance the human race as scientists and practitioners on Mars?????
 
My whole thing is this: Do we honestly believe that the current generation of little narcissists that we are raising today will be capable of putting themselves and their own desires aside in order to advance the human race as scientists and practitioners on Mars?????
YES. Not everyone is as self involved as you seem to think they are. People are different, and a generation is not a monolithic block of narcissists. I am certain that there are many thousands of people right now, of all ages, who have the drive to explore and learn and are willing to put their future on the line to do so.
 
YES. Not everyone is as self involved as you seem to think they are. People are different, and a generation is not a monolithic block of narcissists. I am certain that there are many thousands of people right now, of all ages, who have the drive to explore and learn and are willing to put their future on the line to do so.
You’re not wrong, and I certainly made a blanket statement. However, GenZ is the first generation in history to not know a time before social media. I am not hardly suggesting that ONLY GenZ is plagued by the ills of social media, but their generation is the first generation to discover social media from the earliest of ages. I am saddened by the future of our world with GenZ at the helm one day.
 
. I am not hardly suggesting that ONLY GenZ is plagued by the ills of social media, but their generation is the first generation to discover social media from the earliest of ages. I am saddened by the future of our world with GenZ at the helm one day.
And that is a topic for a different thread.

Let’s get back on topic, please.
 
And to get this back on topic, I'm worried about LEO and MEO debris for a large rotating station. According to Google, the ISS only has to maneuver once a year on average. So my fears are probably unjustified. That said, moving around a rotating large object is probably a bit trickier than a non-rotating object. I expect the maneuvering would need to happen at the hub.
 
And to get this back on topic, I'm worried about LEO and MEO debris for a large rotating station. According to Google, the ISS only has to maneuver once a year on average. So my fears are probably unjustified. That said, moving around a rotating large object is probably a bit trickier than a non-rotating object. I expect the maneuvering would need to happen at the hub.
I don’t think your concerns are unjustified at all. Orbital debris is only going to get worse.

But changing orbit using thrusters mounted on a rotating hub seems like it would be quite challenging. Perhaps if the station axis was kept perpendicular to the surface of the Earth that would make it simpler?
 
AFAIK there's been zero research into things like the ability of animals, never mind humans, to conceive, bear and raise young (children) at anything other than 1.0 G. All the research into micro gravity has shown serious short term (<2 year) consequences. Not only has there been no research into this, I'm unaware of any plans to do such research.
Anyone, and their spouses, ready to experiment on their children to be?
 
What percentage of earth gravity would we need? With Mars at 38% do we match that?
If the purpose of this craft is to support human life en route to Mars, then why couldn’t the simulated gravity this craft provides slowly transition from Earth gravity to Mars gravity during the journey in order to normalize Mars gravity for Mars colonists upon arrival…???
 
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And to get this back on topic, I'm worried about LEO and MEO debris for a large rotating station. According to Google, the ISS only has to maneuver once a year on average. So my fears are probably unjustified. That said, moving around a rotating large object is probably a bit trickier than a non-rotating object. I expect the maneuvering would need to happen at the hub.

I don't think it would be all that tricky. However, the larger the mass of the station, the more energy is needed to maneuver it. And the larger the cross section, the greater the chances of being hit by space debris. The latest episode of Astronomy Cast mentioned that there are now a bunch of 4-inch satellites that are not being tracked because basically, they've lost track of them. I'm thinking here of LEO. It will be many hundreds of years before we'd be able to send a ship to Mars that's large enough to have artificial gravity, as accelerating that much mass will be prohibitively energy-expensive.

AFAIK there's been zero research into things like the ability of animals, never mind humans, to conceive, bear and raise young (children) at anything other than 1.0 G. All the research into micro gravity has shown serious short term (<2 year) consequences. Not only has there been no research into this, I'm unaware of any plans to do such research.
Anyone, and their spouses, ready to experiment on their children to be?

And there's the rub: You cannot ethically perform that experiment. Would-be colonists, in addition to the cruelty of raising kids on Mars, would be experimenting on them to see if they can even survive gestation.

Astronomy Cast also touched on the economics of being a Mars colonist. Nobody ever asks about that. Immigrants to America often came as indentured servants. It's likely that Mars colonists would have to pay for their trip with indentured servitude, working for the company that sent them and established the colony. Company mining towns in America often charged miners so much for food and supplies that they just went deeper into debt every year. (Recall the line from the Tennessee Ernie Ford song:

"Ya load sixteen tons, and what do ya get?
Another day older and deeper in debt!
Saint Peter, dontcha call me 'cause I can't go:
I owe my soul to the company store." )

But on Mars there will be no government but the company, no legal recourse, and no way to leave. Even communication with Earth will be controlled by the company. Colonists will become debt slaves, never able to pay off their transportation. In America, kids don't inherit their parents' debts, but on Mars, who's to stop the company from demanding that kids take on their parents' debts? After all, they'll have nowhere to go: They can't leave; they can't walk away, they can't return to Earth. Who on Earth is going to pay to rescue them?

That's assuming they can survive there at all, which I highly doubt. NASA or the Chinese may send a couple of people there just to say we/they did it. But a colony won't be able to support itself. Colonies are financed in the hope of profit, and there's no profit to be had from Mars. Political bragging rights and maybe research. Not a self-sustaining colony.
 
If the purpose of this craft is to support human life en route to Mars, then why couldn’t the simulated gravity this craft provides slowly transition from Earth gravity to Mars gravity during the journey in order to normalize Mars gravity for Mars colonists upon arrival…???

That's probably what they would do. So the bone loss and other deleterious effects of diminished gravity would begin before the colonists even arrived.
 
That's probably what they would do. So the bone loss and other deleterious effects of diminished gravity would begin before the colonists even arrived.
I’m not a doctor, but do you really believe that slowed/limited gravity causes bone loss and degradation? Certainly, I could see slowed and mitigated bone formation, gestationally, among babies in utero in lower gravity environments, but I’m not convinced that any substantial bone degradation would occur amongst adults, even in substantially diminished gravity environments.