What nonviolent path was that to be? Israel never saw Gaza as anything else than an open air prison.
With the expansion of the illegal settlements over the past years there is the question, how any Palestinian state is supposed to be viable anyway.
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Israel/Hamas conflict
- Thread starter Buckminster
- Start date
With the expansion of the illegal settlements over the past years there is the question, how any Palestinian state is supposed to be viable anyway.
Finally something both sides of the manipulated lunatics can agree on. Putin finally has something to smile about.
Unity: Pro-Palestine and Pro-Israel Protestors Chant ‘F*ck Joe Biden’ in Unison
Unity: Pro-Palestine and Pro-Israel Protestors Chant ‘F*ck Joe Biden’ in Unison
You really have to admire the sheer brass neck of the Israel supporters who seriously seem to believe that Israel is owed even more.
Um, accepting Israel as a sovereign state and agreeing on borders with small land swaps?
I don't like settlement expansion (though keep in mind a few of those settlements were there pre 1948), but they aren't a dealbreaker for establishing a state. All the disconnected ones would be gone in a peace proposal.
As for Gaza, you act as if present state was how it always was. Not so. Things got worse in 2007 after you know who was voted into power.
It's impractical, but I'd love for international forces to just take over the management of Palestinian lands and relieve Israel of the blame. Let them stop Hamas from launching rockets every day.
And if they suceed removing the terrorism, then absolutely Palestinians should have a state, I don't care what Israel thinks.
Europe is so confident that Palestinians are just oppressed and will be peaceful without Israel occupation, let them handle it.
We were talking hypotheticals. There is pretty much nobody in the Israeli government today who would be a true liberal about Palestine. And my point was that even if there was a liberal government who would move towards a two state solution, the next conservative government would probably undo all the progress.
I see it more as acknowledging the facts as they are now. There are no roads to peace right now.
Conflict in Israel is a no-win situation for a Democratic president. Especially now that the youngest segment of the adult population have been sold on Palestine by TikTok.
Occupation of the Palestinian areas by a somewhat neutral military force to keep the peace would probably be the best short term solution to keep the peace, but I don't think there are any nations willing to take that on. The US would be a bad choice considering the history with Israel. Any country that is predominantly Christian or historically Christian would be a bad choice (looks too much like a new Crusade to the radical Muslims).
A country that has no religious dog in the fight like China or a Buddhist country might work, but none of them want anything to do with this conflict. Another Muslim country or coalition of Muslim countries might work, but most of the nearby Muslim countries don't want to get involved.
Basically the rest of the world doesn't want anything to do with this conflict or they are too involved to be a good neutral force to keep the peace.
Right - the Palestinian Authority is so cooperative, they can't even be bothered to change their genocidal and anti-Semitic children's textbooks brainwashing their future generations to all consuming Jew hatred. Not talking about Hamas here, but the so called moderate Palestinian Authority. Believe Abbas is serving his 20th year of his 8 year term living off EU and US taxpayers money.
With decades of education like this, no surprise that West Bank Palestinians are ignorant Islamist radicals too.
Even the EU Parliament is forced to call the textbooks out.
Evidence is coming forward that the protesters that are causing problems have a significant number of people who are not students at the schools where the protests are happening.
What to know about 'outside agitators' cops say are co-opting Columbia protests
Outside 'instigators' and 'agitators' are behind violence, university leaders insist: Live updates
I saw this many years ago when the WTO protests in Seattle got violent. The WTO was meeting in Seattle and a number of peaceniks turned out to peacefully protest. Outside agitators posing as protesters started violence and things got out of hand.
I talked to someone who was protesting on a street corner. She and some others were standing there with signs and banners when a car pulled up, a couple of guys with hammers jumped out, smashed the windows of the nearby Starbucks and sped off. The protesters just standing there got blamed in the media (though the police couldn't arrest anyone because nobody had anything on them that could have broken the windows).
This happened all over the city. Since then it has become a pattern with peaceful protests for liberal causes. A friend of my partner went to some of the protests for black lives matter in Portland in 2020. Things were fine in the early evening, but then between 10 and midnight young men with crew cuts and masks would start showing up and would start throwing things at the police and damaging property.
Some of those men might have just been kids who wanted to get away with being anti-social or it may have been more organized. There are stories that the right wing militia groups from the next county were going down into Portland to stir up trouble. In 2020 they clashed with protesters several times resulting in property damage, injuries, and one death. The protesters were overwhelmingly lived in Portland while the agitators were from outside the county. Many live across the state line in SW Washington.
The day before the death in Portland I ran across the same agitators by accident when I was on my way home from the market. My partner wanted me to stop and pick up take out and they were doing an impromptu parade in front of the restaurant. It felt like I had stumbled into the middle of a Klan rally. On the news footage I saw some of the same trucks on the streets of Portland the next day, so I'm sure it was many of the same guys.
There were guys walking up and down the street with body armor and AR-15s. People were waving flags declaring their allegiance to a number of political candidates and driving up and down the street in their jacked up 4X4 pickups. A couple of the trucks were painted in camo colors.
The agitators have a political agenda. They think that maximizing chaos helps their candidate. Russia wants to see it too. They want to ensure Ukraine gets no more help from the US.
And stirring up trouble over Israel is a bad issue for Biden. The Boomers and Gen X are predominantly pro-Israel, even Democrat, and the younger generations are pro-Palestine to a large degree. The Republicans are more united on this. A large majority are pro-Israel so it's not a split issue for any Republican candidates.
What to know about 'outside agitators' cops say are co-opting Columbia protests
Outside 'instigators' and 'agitators' are behind violence, university leaders insist: Live updates
I saw this many years ago when the WTO protests in Seattle got violent. The WTO was meeting in Seattle and a number of peaceniks turned out to peacefully protest. Outside agitators posing as protesters started violence and things got out of hand.
I talked to someone who was protesting on a street corner. She and some others were standing there with signs and banners when a car pulled up, a couple of guys with hammers jumped out, smashed the windows of the nearby Starbucks and sped off. The protesters just standing there got blamed in the media (though the police couldn't arrest anyone because nobody had anything on them that could have broken the windows).
This happened all over the city. Since then it has become a pattern with peaceful protests for liberal causes. A friend of my partner went to some of the protests for black lives matter in Portland in 2020. Things were fine in the early evening, but then between 10 and midnight young men with crew cuts and masks would start showing up and would start throwing things at the police and damaging property.
Some of those men might have just been kids who wanted to get away with being anti-social or it may have been more organized. There are stories that the right wing militia groups from the next county were going down into Portland to stir up trouble. In 2020 they clashed with protesters several times resulting in property damage, injuries, and one death. The protesters were overwhelmingly lived in Portland while the agitators were from outside the county. Many live across the state line in SW Washington.
The day before the death in Portland I ran across the same agitators by accident when I was on my way home from the market. My partner wanted me to stop and pick up take out and they were doing an impromptu parade in front of the restaurant. It felt like I had stumbled into the middle of a Klan rally. On the news footage I saw some of the same trucks on the streets of Portland the next day, so I'm sure it was many of the same guys.
There were guys walking up and down the street with body armor and AR-15s. People were waving flags declaring their allegiance to a number of political candidates and driving up and down the street in their jacked up 4X4 pickups. A couple of the trucks were painted in camo colors.
The agitators have a political agenda. They think that maximizing chaos helps their candidate. Russia wants to see it too. They want to ensure Ukraine gets no more help from the US.
And stirring up trouble over Israel is a bad issue for Biden. The Boomers and Gen X are predominantly pro-Israel, even Democrat, and the younger generations are pro-Palestine to a large degree. The Republicans are more united on this. A large majority are pro-Israel so it's not a split issue for any Republican candidates.
To your point, a group of law firms have filed suit against 2 US entities alleging they are propaganda arms for Hamas and are working in concert with them at universities across the US.
From the X post with portions of the lawsuit detailed. I’ve seen reports of some of the cited items in other posts on X, e.g., pamphlets dated before the Oct 7th attack.
How Counterprotesters at U.C.L.A. Provoked Violence, Unchecked for Hours
....The violence had been instigated by dozens of people who are seen in videos counterprotesting the encampment.The videos showed counterprotesters attacking students in the pro-Palestinian encampment for several hours, including beating them with sticks, using chemical sprays and launching fireworks as weapons. As of Friday, no arrests had been made in connection with the attack.....
The videos show many of the counterprotesters were wearing pro-Israel slogans on their clothing. Some counterprotesters blared music, including Israel’s national anthem, a Hebrew children’s song and “Harbu Darbu,” an Israeli song about the Israel Defense Forces’ campaign in Gaza.
How Counterprotesters at U.C.L.A. Provoked Violence, Unchecked for Hours
The New York Times used videos filmed by journalists, witnesses and protesters to analyze hours of clashes — and a delayed police response — at a pro-Palestinian encampment on Tuesday.
As you seem to be so conserned about people with connections to terrorists abroad, it is surprising that you have missed the report above. It seems that the people who have connections to terrorist groups abroad are mainly dual Israeli-US citizens, who decided to rather join the Israeli occupation forces than to join the US armed forces. Some readers of the NY Times report allege that there was even a "Go Fund Me" page for this violent mob and that at least one well known Jewish donor donated a substantial amount. What are the charges for inciting and financing a violent riot?
It is also remarkable that the police stood by and let the violent pro-Israel mob riot with abandon for hours, just to attack the peaceful protesters with rubber bullets the next day.
Seriously, China doesn't even have to make up anti-US propaganda. They just have to show these events: violent attacks on peaceful students and university professors with rubber bullets, mounted police etc. etc., and a political system that is corrupted to the core by pro-Israel donations.
Just in case some people have lost out of sight what's going on in Gaza :
The US and other Western countries are fully complicit here. However, it's obviously far more important that some pro-Israel students in the US feel "uncomfortable" because of the protests.
One Photo That Captures the Loss in Gaza
Parts of Gaza Are in Famine, World Food Program Chief Says
The US and other Western countries are fully complicit here. However, it's obviously far more important that some pro-Israel students in the US feel "uncomfortable" because of the protests.
Jigglypuff
Member
The same students who demanded no police on UCLA's campus now demand an answer as to why it took police so long to reply. From Sunset to Le Conte, UCLA will be free of cops! Well, excusez-moi!
Meanwhile, UCLA moved classes online. This could have been all stopped right away if the UCLAPD just started arresting these "protestors" from the get go when they violated the law. I'm eagerly awaiting the same to happen at UCSC, so that things can go back to normal there too. I'm staying the heck out of Berkeley in the meantime.
Meanwhile, UCLA moved classes online. This could have been all stopped right away if the UCLAPD just started arresting these "protestors" from the get go when they violated the law. I'm eagerly awaiting the same to happen at UCSC, so that things can go back to normal there too. I'm staying the heck out of Berkeley in the meantime.
How Counterprotesters at U.C.L.A. Provoked Violence, Unchecked for Hours
....The violence had been instigated by dozens of people who are seen in videos counterprotesting the encampment.
The videos showed counterprotesters attacking students in the pro-Palestinian encampment for several hours, including beating them with sticks, using chemical sprays and launching fireworks as weapons. As of Friday, no arrests had been made in connection with the attack.....
The videos show many of the counterprotesters were wearing pro-Israel slogans on their clothing. Some counterprotesters blared music, including Israel’s national anthem, a Hebrew children’s song and “Harbu Darbu,” an Israeli song about the Israel Defense Forces’ campaign in Gaza.
How Counterprotesters at U.C.L.A. Provoked Violence, Unchecked for Hours
The New York Times used videos filmed by journalists, witnesses and protesters to analyze hours of clashes — and a delayed police response — at a pro-Palestinian encampment on Tuesday.www.nytimes.com
As you seem to be so conserned about people with connections to terrorists abroad, it is surprising that you have missed the report above. It seems that the people who have connections to terrorist groups abroad are mainly dual Israeli-US citizens, who decided to rather join the Israeli occupation forces than to join the US armed forces. Some readers of the NY Times report allege that there was even a "Go Fund Me" page for this violent mob and that at least one well known Jewish donor donated a substantial amount. What are the charges for inciting and financing a violent riot?
It is also remarkable that the police stood by and let the violent pro-Israel mob riot with abandon for hours, just to attack the peaceful protesters with rubber bullets the next day.
Seriously, China doesn't even have to make up anti-US propaganda. They just have to show these events: violent attacks on peaceful students and university professors with rubber bullets, mounted police etc. etc., and a political system that is corrupted to the core by pro-Israel donations.
The pro-Israel lobby in the US has had outsized influence for several decades. Some anti-semites want to take that to the extreme and cite discredited sources like the Elders of Zion and other extremist rhetoric. Jewish people do not control any governments through Svengali like control behind the scenes.
It's possible that the counter-protest was intended to be peaceful and it was infiltrated by bad actors intent on making it go south. That has happened in a number of peaceful protests in the US over the last 25 years. We may never know for sure.
I'm not surprised that a counter-protest sprang up at UCLA. UCLA is very close to a neighborhood with a large number of Jewish people and fairly affluent too. Los Angeles has the second largest Jewish population in the US and there is a large concentration in West Los Angeles near UCLA.
I was watching a podcast that discussed the politics of this in the US last night and it's a very weird, complex web. The far right is largely pro-Israel, but also has a high percentage of anti-semites. There is almost no support on the right for Palestine, but they love the protests because it hurts the left in the election. There is a whole separate layer of politics that is, in many ways, opposite the beliefs in that coalition. It's mind bending weird.
The left has it's own complex struggle that is more generational. Probably most older people on the left are very much inline with the actual policy of the administration: help Israel defend itself, but give help to the Palestinian refugees. The younger left leaning folks either are just ignoring the whole thing (younger people tend to be more apolitical) or are more pro-Palestine than the older generations. I didn't catch the name of the poll, but one recent poll found that Israel-Palestine ranked something like 10th among the under 30 population. Most ranked issues closer to home such as the cost of living, healthcare, gun violence, etc. as much more important.
This issue is a burning passion for a relative few youth, but most are just getting on with their lives best they can.
Self inflicted. Sorry no sympathies. If there was no Oct 7th, they wouldn’t be here.
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Difference between states (NY, CA) ruled by pro-Muslim woke policies , and the states (TX, FL) ruled by pro-American policies.
“Actions have consequences. At the University of Florida, we have repeatedly, patiently explained two things to protesters: We will always defend your rights to free speech and free assembly-but if you cross the line on clearly prohibited activities, you will be thrown off campus and sus-pended. In Gainesville, that means a three-year prohibition from campus.
That's serious. We said it. We meant it. We enforced it. We wish we didn't have to, but the students weighed the costs, made their decisions, and will own the consequences as adults.
We're a university, not a daycare. We don't coddle emotions, we wrestle with ideas.”
- President, University of Florida
“Actions have consequences. At the University of Florida, we have repeatedly, patiently explained two things to protesters: We will always defend your rights to free speech and free assembly-but if you cross the line on clearly prohibited activities, you will be thrown off campus and sus-pended. In Gainesville, that means a three-year prohibition from campus.
That's serious. We said it. We meant it. We enforced it. We wish we didn't have to, but the students weighed the costs, made their decisions, and will own the consequences as adults.
We're a university, not a daycare. We don't coddle emotions, we wrestle with ideas.”
- President, University of Florida
It's possible that the counter-protest was intended to be peaceful and it was infiltrated by bad actors intent on making it go south. That has happened in a number of peaceful protests in the US over the last 25 years. We may never know for sure.
At 10:50 pm, innocent "counter-protesters" getting all surprised by violent thugs who are showing up all of a sudden to start violence? May I ask what thse "counter-protesters" were doing before they started their protest? Did they have tickets to the opera and reservations at a fancy restaurant that shouldn't go to waste? And strangely enough the cops were unable to arrest any of them?
Seriously, no one is buying that nonsense.
BTW, as to Texas: in Uvalde these tough Texas cops were shitting their pants and didn't risk anything to save small kids, yet when it comes to attacking peaceful students they are all for it.
Nearly half the protesters arrested in New York are not students. Same type of anarchists that were burning our cities down exploiting the death of George Floyd in 2020.
How stupid are these people? Other than full on anti-Semites and Islamists, who do they think they are winning over by shutting down graduations, blocking bridges and airport entrances?
These tactics are about as stupid as Palestinian terrorists hijacking airplanes, murdering Olympic athletes and the grotesque orgy of violence, murder and rape on 10/7 to bring attention to their cause.
But, sadly there is an audience for this type of nihilism.
How stupid are these people? Other than full on anti-Semites and Islamists, who do they think they are winning over by shutting down graduations, blocking bridges and airport entrances?
These tactics are about as stupid as Palestinian terrorists hijacking airplanes, murdering Olympic athletes and the grotesque orgy of violence, murder and rape on 10/7 to bring attention to their cause.
But, sadly there is an audience for this type of nihilism.
Jigglypuff
Member
Maybe the point has nothing to do with Israel/Palestine, but it's either independent actors who just want an excuse to cause trouble for trouble's sake, or they are American political actors who want to dominate news cycles with Israel/Palestine protests out of control. There is a narrative in some political circles that the leftist protesters are violent mobs out to tear apart everything. If some of their allies help that along, it feeds the narrative.
