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Israel/Hamas conflict

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As bad as Hamas is, they have a lot of competition for the worst group of humans in history.
What’s another group that stole aid from the most needy in their population and used it instead to fatten themselves to terrorize a peaceful music festival and coop farms that pose no threat to them, and videotape themselves raping and pillaging and take back innocents as hostages? In the context of modern day warfare with norms against disguising war fighters as civilians.

Hamas is uniquely successful in disguising their terrorists as civilians, and their terrorist infrastructure as civilian infrastructure, in a relative scale that no other modern military or terrorist organization has ever done. It is amazing that Israel has achieved the military to civilian kill ratio that they have, given Hamas’ perfection in their art of using civilian shields.
 
This is quite a dismissive attitude towards the students. What makes you believe that they aren't informed about Israel's history? The more you learn about Zionism, the way Israel came into existence and the way it treated the Palestinians, the less likely you are to like this history.
There is absolutely zero justification for the way the Palestinians are treated in the West Bank and this completely invalidates all these insincere "but Hamas" arguments.
Is that what they are teaching in Frankfurt ?
 
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The Columbia University protests were initially unknown.

However, thanks to the tough tactics to violently squash the students with riot police, it has ignited copycat protests in many other universities in the US:

MZNAM8A.jpeg


It reminded me that when Trump cracked down on protests, the protests grew instead of died down.
 
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The Columbia University protests were initially unknown.

However, thanks to the tough tactics to violently squash the students with riot police, it has ignited copycat protests in many other universities in the US:

MZNAM8A.jpeg


It reminded me that when Trump cracked down on protests, the protests grew instead of died down.
Yes...because students can only communicate by television
 
This is quite a dismissive attitude towards the students. What makes you believe that they aren't informed about Israel's history?
Because the young and stupid are absolutely young and stupid? Have you seen or listened to any of these protesters? The ones that are not outright Islamists or anti-Semites calling for the total destruction of Israel are just totally clueless like these two dumb girls and couldn't find Israel on a map.


The more you learn about Zionism, the way Israel came into existence and the way it treated the Palestinians, the less likely you are to like this history.
History?

In my short lifetime, I have watched virtually every Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Yazidi, Baha'i and Animist religious minority group be ethnically cleansed and persecuted by radical Muslims in the Middle East and parts of Africa. Bethlehem was 80% Christian 20 years ago until the PLA took it over and now it is less than 10%. Lebanon was majority Christian before Palestinians wrecked it, and now it is a client state to Iran and hostage to Hezbollah.

None of this ethnic cleansing and religious persecution done by Islamists appears to bother you and the western morons out in the streets calling for the destruction of Israel. But if Israel has the temerity to try and rescue their hostages and not end up like Yazidi rape slaves, some people in the West preposterously accuse Israel of "genocide". It is beyond grotesque.

Glad to get a German's perspective about Jews and history! Does history only start at 1948 conveniently omitting why so many Jews were looking for a new homeland (among tens of millions of Ukrainians, Germans, Russians, Poles......) after WWII? Awfully convenient.....
 
However, thanks to the tough tactics to violently squash the students with riot police, it has ignited copycat protests in many other universities in the US:
Tough tactics? With the exception of Texas and Florida, virtually all the other universities are rolling over and giving these protestors free reign.

USC just cancelled graduation for cripes sakes! Columbia had to go to remote learning for the rest of the year because they can't control their anti-Semitic mobs.

I guarantee you if these cowardly University administrators starting EXPELLING these students, the violent protests and occupations would stop instantly. Even arresting them is little deterrent, as most of these protests are happening in Liberal cities who have DA's that will free them instantly with a slap on the wrist. Getting a fake arrest to these pathetic protesters just gives them more street credibility.

You got to hit them where it hurts - and threaten take away their shiny college degrees in Gender Studies and Post Colonial Interpretive Dance. That goes double for the rotten professors that are out protesting and spreading anti-Semitism poison to their students.
 
The problem with this kind of journalism is that it interviews the small fish (a follower) instead of the big fish (a leader).

Many followers are clueless, but they place their trust in their leaders.
Here is one of the "leaders" of the Columbia protests.

This is who the administration is negotiating with.

Many people in the West have gone absolutely insane!

 
Tough tactics? With the exception of Texas and Florida, virtually all the other universities are rolling over and giving these protestors free reign.

USC just cancelled graduation for cripes sakes! Columbia had to go to remote learning for the rest of the year because they can't control their anti-Semitic mobs.

I guarantee you if these cowardly University administrators starting EXPELLING these students, the violent protests and occupations would stop instantly. Even arresting them is little deterrent, as most of these protests are happening in Liberal cities who have DA's that will free them instantly with a slap on the wrist. Getting a fake arrest to these pathetic protesters just gives them more street credibility.

You got to hit them where it hurts - and threaten take away their shiny college degrees in Gender Studies and Post Colonial Interpretive Dance. That goes double for the rotten professors that are out protesting and spreading anti-Semitism poison to their students.
Columbia students and faculty members have been arrested and suspended. All tents were taken down, thrown away, and disappeared during the first raid.

Quickly, the tents returned even more, and the crowd returned even more.

Students protest in Tiananmen Square, China, didn't disperse until the tanks were called in:

106519935_022468588-2.jpg
 
This, of course, is not true for all kids in Gen Z. I know a number of Gen Z who are not full of themselves. But this narcissism is more prevalent in this generation than the generations before it.
Boomers are pretty narcissistic as a generation too, and they didn't have Instagram and TikTok messing their brains up.
When it comes to the DT, anything they write on Israel is an opinion piece, even the supposedly neutral reporting. Usually you get hammered with several pro-Israel opinion pieces each day. They have this awful Colonel Kemp writing for them, who has always been one of the most shameless shills for the IDF. Obviously the DT fails to inform its readers that this supposedly neutral British ex-colonel is director of an IDF-charity in the UK (yes, such things exist).
It would have been huge fun if this of all papers would have been bought by Qatar's sovereign wealth fund, but they seem to have got out of that.
I only subscribe to them because the subscription is currently less than 1 €/month and it is more hilarious to read than any dedicated parody paper.

As to "left leaning" papers, I have a hard time to think of any major paper in the UK that's as far to the left as the DT is to the right. That would have to be something like the (imaginary) "Socialist Worker's Daily" or some fringe paper like that, the Guardian most certainly isn't. The Guardian even shut down its "Guardian Unlimited Talk" years ago, as (among other things) Israel was criticized too massively there.
The Guardian is rather left wing, I'd say. It's not fully communist. Just maybe 70%.
The problem with this kind of journalism is that it interviews the small fish (a follower) instead of the big fish (a leader).

Many followers are clueless, but they place their trust in their leaders.
This guy's a leader.

"Zionists Don’t Deserve to Live"​

Yeah, not antisemites at all. But we're eager for the excuses. Go ahead and post them.
Students protest in Tiananmen Square, China, didn't disperse until the tanks were called in:
The Chinese government, who supports Iran and Hamas, went in and murdered a bunch of students who were not threatening or harassing anybody and who were fighting for their own rights that they actually understood and knew were being impinged by their own government. Meanwhile, at Columbia and Berkeley, ignorant antisemites (redundant, I know) harass, disrupt educations, and make nonsensical demands about a conflict across the world that they don't even understand and does not affect them. My dad was at Berkeley in the '60s, and he had to go to UCLA to get an actual education, thanks to all the idiocy at Cal. Idiocy is doing the same at many campuses today.
 
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Columbia protest leader: ‘Be grateful that I’m not just going out and murdering Zionists’​



THIS is the guy (or girl?) that Columbia University is negotiating with.

If these anti-Semites were wearing KKK robes instead of COVID masks and preferred pronouns, the university and local police would have shut this down in a New York minute!
 
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The problem with this kind of journalism is that it interviews the small fish (a follower) instead of the big fish (a leader).

Many followers are clueless, but they place their trust in their leaders.
Not good enough.....if these are just mindless anti-Semitic thugs (guys and gals) on the streets, fair enough....the leaders do their thinking for them. But college students should be able to articulate their goals, beliefs and methods....which makes the college administrators accusation that the campus has been infiltrated seem legitimate and are correct to call the police
 

Columbia protest leader: ‘Be grateful that I’m not just going out and murdering Zionists’​



THIS is the guy (or girl?) that Columbia University is negotiating with.

If these anti-Semites were wearing KKK robes instead of COVID masks and preferred pronouns, the university and local police would have shut this down in a New York minute!
Hold on now. If the KKK members were decrying the Jews, they'd be allowed. Free speech and all.
Not good enough.....if these are just mindless anti-Semitic thugs (guys and gals) on the streets, fair enough....the leaders do their thinking for them. But college students should be able to articulate their goals, beliefs and methods....which makes the college administrators accusation that the campus has been infiltrated seem legitimate and are correct to call the police
There has been a concerted effort on the far left, going back well before I was in school some 25 years ago, to brainwash students into radicalism. The far right doesn't spend their time at schools so much. Education is no cure for radicalism, and radicalism is a self-reinforcing form of brainwashing. Social media is also the perfect home for the far left and far right to play their mind games.
 
Because the young and stupid are absolutely young and stupid? Have you seen or listened to any of these protesters? The ones that are not outright Islamists or anti-Semites calling for the total destruction of Israel are just totally clueless like these two dumb girls and couldn't find Israel on a map.



History?

In my short lifetime, I have watched virtually every Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Yazidi, Baha'i and Animist religious minority group be ethnically cleansed and persecuted by radical Muslims in the Middle East and parts of Africa. Bethlehem was 80% Christian 20 years ago until the PLA took it over and now it is less than 10%. Lebanon was majority Christian before Palestinians wrecked it, and now it is a client state to Iran and hostage to Hezbollah.

None of this ethnic cleansing and religious persecution done by Islamists appears to bother you and the western morons out in the streets calling for the destruction of Israel. But if Israel has the temerity to try and rescue their hostages and not end up like Yazidi rape slaves, some people in the West preposterously accuse Israel of "genocide". It is beyond grotesque.

Glad to get a German's perspective about Jews and history! Does history only start at 1948 conveniently omitting why so many Jews were looking for a new homeland (among tens of millions of Ukrainians, Germans, Russians, Poles......) after WWII? Awfully convenient.....
Oh dear, what a rant. Calling people with different opinions morons, I wonder if that's the acceptable style of debate here?

Add to that the very selective memory that neatly apportions blame, while forgetting inconvenient facts.
The Zionist movement with its aim of replacing the local Palestinian population was well on its way before Hitler even took his first stab at power. Look at Zionist icons like Golda Meir, who felt entitled to move to Palestine in 1921, despite living safely in the US as a US citizen. That was two years before Hitler's failed Beerhall Putsch. Yet we are mostly hearing Meir's hypocritical statements about how the Arabs weren't willing to live "in peace" with the Jewidh population, as if she hadn't been one of the people who were keen to drive them off their land in the first place.
When you do all this finger-pointing at Muslims, you kindly forget that we can thank the British Empire and the US as two of the main responsible parties for the mess we are seeing in the Middle East today, with the US easily being one of the most murderous actors there. When you point out "Yazidi rape slaves", you seem to believe that people have short memories. Why was Isis even able to develop into a power? That's because Iraq was destroyed as a functioning state by the US. I still recall Colin Powell delivering a pack of lies at the UN. Yet obviously people are supposed to forget about that, just as people are supposed to forget about the fact that the US stoked Islamism when it seemed convenient. I still recall how the Afghan mujahideen were lauded in the Western press when they were supported by the West to drive the Soviets out of Kabul. Those are the people who taught bin Laden his trade. Supporting Islamic radicals was a really good idea, wasn't it?
 
This is quite a dismissive attitude towards the students. What makes you believe that they aren't informed about Israel's history? The more you learn about Zionism, the way Israel came into existence and the way it treated the Palestinians, the less likely you are to like this history.
There is absolutely zero justification for the way the Palestinians are treated in the West Bank and this completely invalidates all these insincere "but Hamas" arguments.

Because I know most of them were never taught that history. In the US each state sets its own education policies. Some states have good standards for teaching history and civics while others are terrible and have been for a long time.

My partner was in a Zoom book club with a group of women who were mostly in Texas. There were two women there who were educated in Oregon and most of the rest in Texas. One of the Texas women was very well self educated on history and civics, but the rest were completely ignorant of many things that the two Oregon educated women had learned in school.

I was educated in California, which had a very comprehensive history and civics education standard when I was a kid (70s and 80s). I also grew up in a household that was very plugged into both politics and history. I was literally surrounded with history books throughout my childhood.

I learned a fair bit about Israel's history because of my family and it was in the news when I was a kid, but I got nothing about Israel in school. In my lifetime the 1967, 1973, and 1982 wars happened in Israel. There was also the story of the Munich Olympics 1972 massacre.

But because my generation lived through these wars and saw it on the news, we know that Israel has been attacked in the past and they have become very belligerent to anyone who attacks them because they have had to. Israel got attacked as the British pulled out in 1948.

To Gen Z, Israel has never lived through a war in which Israel was fighting for their survival. Israel has been the strongest and dominant military in the region. To people who are completely disconnected from history before they were born, Israel looks like the bully.

This ignorance shows in interviews and studies of Gen Z. There are a few who do know the history, but a large percentage know nothing but the Palestinian side because TikTok got to them and nobody else has.

What’s another group that stole aid from the most needy in their population and used it instead to fatten themselves to terrorize a peaceful music festival and coop farms that pose no threat to them, and videotape themselves raping and pillaging and take back innocents as hostages? In the context of modern day warfare with norms against disguising war fighters as civilians.

Hamas is uniquely successful in disguising their terrorists as civilians, and their terrorist infrastructure as civilian infrastructure, in a relative scale that no other modern military or terrorist organization has ever done. It is amazing that Israel has achieved the military to civilian kill ratio that they have, given Hamas’ perfection in their art of using civilian shields.

Hamas is probably in the top 10 of worst groups today, but even currently they have competition. Look at the videos that ISIS and Al Qaeda put out. Same with the Russians. Russians have horribly tortured Ukrainian prisoners and civilians in captured territories.

In relatively recent history Stalin's USSR systematically starved Ukrainians in the 1930s and killed millions of their own people as well as sentenced many to gulags. Mao Se Tung is the biggest mass murderer in know history. In the cultural revolution tens of millions of Chinese died.

Then there are the Nazis who tortured and killed Roma, Jewish people, and other "undesirables" in the most systematic way in history. The founders of Israel included a lot of people who survived the holocaust (either by escaping before the Nazis could capture them or actually surviving the camps). The country was founded by some pretty traumatized people.

Other groups have done terrible things in smaller countries. The famines in Ethiopia happened because the food aid was getting stolen. Ida Amin wasn't a saint, neither was Quadafi.

Further back in history the Romans were famous for their cruel punishments. There were the witch trials, the Spanish Inquisition ("nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"), the atrocities committed during the crusades, and many other horrid things people have done through history.

I could list them all night. One thing that stands out studying history is just how utterly cruel humans can be to one another.

The problem with this kind of journalism is that it interviews the small fish (a follower) instead of the big fish (a leader).

Many followers are clueless, but they place their trust in their leaders.

Even if the leaders know better, the fact that the followers are poorly educated about the history are vulnerable to get co-opted. A well educated population is much more immune to getting manipulated. They look at the attempts to bring them into their movement and walk away because they know it's based on a distortion of the truth.

Tough tactics? With the exception of Texas and Florida, virtually all the other universities are rolling over and giving these protestors free reign.

USC just cancelled graduation for cripes sakes! Columbia had to go to remote learning for the rest of the year because they can't control their anti-Semitic mobs.

I guarantee you if these cowardly University administrators starting EXPELLING these students, the violent protests and occupations would stop instantly. Even arresting them is little deterrent, as most of these protests are happening in Liberal cities who have DA's that will free them instantly with a slap on the wrist. Getting a fake arrest to these pathetic protesters just gives them more street credibility.

You got to hit them where it hurts - and threaten take away their shiny college degrees in Gender Studies and Post Colonial Interpretive Dance. That goes double for the rotten professors that are out protesting and spreading anti-Semitism poison to their students.

I have seen some stories that a number of the protesters are not students. It is kind of a hollow threat to threaten non-students with expulsion.

Boomers are pretty narcissistic as a generation too, and they didn't have Instagram and TikTok messing their brains up.

I would say the Boomers have been fairly self centered. Gen X can be too. Neither of those generations were all that focused on getting attention. They were more focused on doing their own thing and ignoring the world.

I saw it in the way neighborhoods changed in the burbs. My parents were born in the 20s and most of my neighbors growing up were born in the 20s or 30s. Everyone knew everyone else. My parents knew every family for a couple blocks and they were very introverted.

I bought a house in my 20s and most of my neighbors were Boomers. Everyone kept to themselves. Up until the pandemic, I didn't really know any of my neighbors. During the pandemic a very extroverted Boomer neighbor had some outdoor block parties and it fostered a fair bit of the neighbors getting to know one another. The ones who have kept it up since the pandemic have been the Millennials.
 
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The Columbia University protests were initially unknown.

However, thanks to the tough tactics to violently squash the students with riot police, it has ignited copycat protests in many other universities in the US:

MZNAM8A.jpeg


It reminded me that when Trump cracked down on protests, the protests grew instead of died down.
I disagreed because I have been reading about protests like Columbia across the US for many weeks. If anything,the number has been growing in the absence of firm action to disperse them. I’m not necessarily advocating riot police, but yes, they should not be allowed to disrupt, intimidate, or threaten other students, staff or faculty on campus.

And they don’t get to claim victim when confronted for these actions.
 
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Because I know most of them were never taught that history. In the US each state sets its own education policies. Some states have good standards for teaching history and civics while others are terrible and have been for a long time.

My partner was in a Zoom book club with a group of women who were mostly in Texas. There were two women there who were educated in Oregon and most of the rest in Texas. One of the Texas women was very well self educated on history and civics, but the rest were completely ignorant of many things that the two Oregon educated women had learned in school.

I was educated in California, which had a very comprehensive history and civics education standard when I was a kid (70s and 80s). I also grew up in a household that was very plugged into both politics and history. I was literally surrounded with history books throughout my childhood.

I learned a fair bit about Israel's history because of my family and it was in the news when I was a kid, but I got nothing about Israel in school. In my lifetime the 1967, 1973, and 1982 wars happened in Israel. There was also the story of the Munich Olympics 1972 massacre.

But because my generation lived through these wars and saw it on the news, we know that Israel has been attacked in the past and they have become very belligerent to anyone who attacks them because they have had to. Israel got attacked as the British pulled out in 1948.

To Gen Z, Israel has never lived through a war in which Israel was fighting for their survival. Israel has been the strongest and dominant military in the region. To people who are completely disconnected from history before they were born, Israel looks like the bully.

This ignorance shows in interviews and studies of Gen Z. There are a few who do know the history, but a large percentage know nothing but the Palestinian side because TikTok got to them and nobody else has.



Hamas is probably in the top 10 of worst groups today, but even currently they have competition. Look at the videos that ISIS and Al Qaeda put out. Same with the Russians. Russians have horribly tortured Ukrainian prisoners and civilians in captured territories.

In relatively recent history Stalin's USSR systematically starved Ukrainians in the 1930s and killed millions of their own people as well as sentenced many to gulags. Mao Se Tung is the biggest mass murderer in know history. In the cultural revolution tens of millions of Chinese died.

Then there are the Nazis who tortured and killed Roma, Jewish people, and other "undesirables" in the most systematic way in history. The founders of Israel included a lot of people who survived the holocaust (either by escaping before the Nazis could capture them or actually surviving the camps). The country was founded by some pretty traumatized people.

Other groups have done terrible things in smaller countries. The famines in Ethiopia happened because the food aid was getting stolen. Ida Amin wasn't a saint, neither was Quadafi.

Further back in history the Romans were famous for their cruel punishments. There were the witch trials, the Spanish Inquisition ("nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"), the atrocities committed during the crusades, and many other horrid things people have done through history.

I could list them all night. One thing that stands out studying history is just how utterly cruel humans can be to one another.



Even if the leaders know better, the fact that the followers are poorly educated about the history are vulnerable to get co-opted. A well educated population is much more immune to getting manipulated. They look at the attempts to bring them into their movement and walk away because they know it's based on a distortion of the truth.



I have seen some stories that a number of the protesters are not students. It is kind of a hollow threat to threaten non-students with expulsion.



I would say the Boomers have been fairly self centered. Gen X can be too. Neither of those generations were all that focused on getting attention. They were more focused on doing their own thing and ignoring the world.

I saw it in the way neighborhoods changed in the burbs. My parents were born in the 20s and most of my neighbors growing up were born in the 20s or 30s. Everyone knew everyone else. My parents knew every family for a couple blocks and they were very introverted.

I bought a house in my 20s and most of my neighbors were Boomers. Everyone kept to themselves. Up until the pandemic, I didn't really know any of my neighbors. During the pandemic a very extroverted Boomer neighbor had some outdoor block parties and it fostered a fair bit of the neighbors getting to know one another. The ones who have kept it up since the pandemic have been the Millennials.
I don't know what sort of knowledge you are supposed to have anyway, in order to judge Israel's actions properly. Killing thousands of civilians; bombing civilian areas with heavy, dumb bombs; inducing a famine; destroying hospitals; killing aid workers and journalists - these are war crimes, whatever reason you have to take military action in the first place.
Programs like "Lavender" and "Where's Daddy" are evil, there is no justification for not saying so.
Yet Israeli war crimes are only really highlighted whenever they manage to hit the "wrong" target, as when they killed the Israeli hostages, even though they were clearly unarmed and waving white flags, or their assassination of foreign aid workers.
The same is true for the protests at the universities. At Columbia peaceful protesters were attacked by two other students, Israeli ex-IDF soldiers, with a chemical agent. USC told their valedictorian that she was blocked from speaking even before they knew what she was going to say, because groups like "Trojans for Israel" were agitating against her. These university administrators are completely spineless and corrupt.
 
I don't know what sort of knowledge you are supposed to have anyway, in order to judge Israel's actions properly. Killing thousands of civilians; bombing civilian areas with heavy, dumb bombs; inducing a famine; destroying hospitals; killing aid workers and journalists - these are war crimes, whatever reason you have to take military action in the first place.
Programs like "Lavender" and "Where's Daddy" are evil, there is no justification for not saying so.
Yet Israeli war crimes are only really highlighted whenever they manage to hit the "wrong" target, as when they killed the Israeli hostages, even though they were clearly unarmed and waving white flags, or their assassination of foreign aid workers.
The same is true for the protests at the universities. At Columbia peaceful protesters were attacked by two other students, Israeli ex-IDF soldiers, with a chemical agent. USC told their valedictorian that she was blocked from speaking even before they knew what she was going to say, because groups like "Trojans for Israel" were agitating against her. These university administrators are completely spineless and corrupt.
The view from Germany looks a bit disturbing...it’s almost like they don’t like Jews....but that can’t be right... although they are the experts at rewriting history
 
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