Israel/Hamas conflict

[Just a Reader]

I don't think it's unreasonable to compare historic population figures. The Jewish population grew by about 550k between 1922 and 1947. The Muslim population by about 600k.

You claimed that Muslims immigrated as a result of Jewish immigration.
Yet while the Muslim population only doubled, which can largely be explained by the normal population growth of a society with many children, the Jewish population grew sixfold. It's quite obvious whose population grew by immigration.
Your claims are simply not supported by the data.

 

[SmokyPeat]

Yes, there was prolific Arab immigration into the Palestine mandate due to the economic and agricultural improvements made by both European Jews and the British. The Arabs are no different than any other population in that regard. People will move to where the quality of life is better.

The Smoking Gun: Arab Immigration into Palestine, 1922-1931

In deep antiquity, particularly in Egypt, the early civilization where the arts were most strongly developed, the visualization was aspective: that is the artist, working in paint or low-relief sculpture, conveyed to his two-dimensional surface not so

www.meforum.org

 

[Just a Reader]

Yes, there was prolific Arab immigration into the Palestine mandate due to the economic and agricultural improvements made by both European Jews and the British. The Arabs are no different than any other population in that regard. People will move to where the quality of life is better.

The Smoking Gun: Arab Immigration into Palestine, 1922-1931

In deep antiquity, particularly in Egypt, the early civilization where the arts were most strongly developed, the visualization was aspective: that is the artist, working in paint or low-relief sculpture, conveyed to his two-dimensional surface not so

www.meforum.org

The "Middle East Forum"? A right-wing US think tank with a pro-Israel Jewish staff. I mean, who wouldn't consider them as the very source for unbiased, credible information? I'd rather say that they rate exactly zero when it comes to aspects of impartiality and credibility.
Yet even this outfit only manages to attribute a small part of the increase of the Arab population to immigration, despite using a lot of assumptions and interpolations. On the other hand it's completely undeniable that the increase of the Jewish population was driven by immigration from Europe.

 

[SmokyPeat]

Yes, Aymenn Jawad Al-Tamimi is undoubtedly very Jewish. It is a non-profit conservative think tank, but the article I linked was well researched and informative.

The Coming Collapse of Yemen

Recently, Tawakkol Karman -- a member of the Islah party in Yemen, a women's rights activist and a recipient of this year's Nobel Peace Prize -- warned that her country could be facing a civil war, unless the West begins taking financial and legal action

www.meforum.org

Were the Arabs Indigenous to Mandatory Palestine?

The Rape of Palestine, 1st ed. By William Ziff. London: Longmans, Green and Co., 1938. Reprint. Mansfield Centre, Conn.: Martino Fine Books, 2010. 630 pp. $60. The assertion that Palestinian Arabs are the indigenous population is central in their dispute

www.meforum.org

 

[Just a Reader]

Yes, Aymenn Jawad Al-Tamimi is undoubtedly very Jewish. It is a non-profit conservative think tank, but the article I linked was well researched and informative.

The Coming Collapse of Yemen

Recently, Tawakkol Karman -- a member of the Islah party in Yemen, a women's rights activist and a recipient of this year's Nobel Peace Prize -- warned that her country could be facing a civil war, unless the West begins taking financial and legal action

www.meforum.org

Were the Arabs Indigenous to Mandatory Palestine?

The Rape of Palestine, 1st ed. By William Ziff. London: Longmans, Green and Co., 1938. Reprint. Mansfield Centre, Conn.: Martino Fine Books, 2010. 630 pp. $60. The assertion that Palestinian Arabs are the indigenous population is central in their dispute

www.meforum.org

Well, I suggest you take a look at the Biographies of the staff from the President down and at their Board of Governors, and then try to tell me again that these Jewish "Friends of Israel" don't run a massively pro-Israel organisation. Should you still not be convinced, they are also running the "Israel Victory Project".
That's obviously legitimate, just don't try to sell them as some impartial source.
As they are a nonprofit, I'm quite surprised that their financial information is ten years old. Aren't they obliged to disclose their finance sources?

Anyway, even they don't manage to claim that the growth of the Palestinian population was mainly driven by immigration, while the Jewish was based on immigration from Europe.

 

[bhzmark]

Personally, I am disgusted with Israel's government, specifically Netanyahu and the religious fanatic parties that support him. I believe they are responsible for murder, oppression, and war against all Palestinians, not only in Gaza but on the West Bank.

I am disgusted with Hamas and their actions towards Palestinians and Israelis. Murder, mayhem, and war. Disgraceful and dishonorable.

At this point it's entirely clear that there's nothing going on other than endless cycles of vengeance. Nobody involved has any solution other than "We'll have peace when the others are all dead." There is no adult to be seen anywhere.

That was precisely my view too — up to October 7.

Now, after the most gruesome display of massive hand-to-hand torture and barbarism on civilians since ? the Vikings? the world will be a better place in the long run for Israel and the rest of civilization to take out all who lead and participated in any way in October 7 under the rules of international law.

 

[SmokyPeat]

Well, I suggest you take a look at the Biographies of the staff from the President down and at their Board of Governors, and then try to tell me again that these Jewish "Friends of Israel" don't run a massively pro-Israel organisation. Should you still not be convinced, they are also running the "Israel Victory Project".
That's obviously legitimate, just don't try to sell them as some impartial source.
As they are a nonprofit, I'm quite surprised that their financial information is ten years old. Aren't they obliged to disclose their finance sources?

Anyway, even they don't manage to claim that the growth of the Palestinian population was mainly driven by immigration, while the Jewish was based on immigration from Europe.

I'm not selling anything. They state in their charter that they are pro Israel and anti Islamofacism. Yet they don't promulgate pure bs fairy tales like virtually all of pro Palestine organizations.

 

[Sti-g]

Huh? Completely different?

They are both Sunni Islamist terrorist groups that target and murder civilians. They are both offshoots of the Muslim Brotherhood that spawned Al Qaeda and ISIS.

They both want Israel destroyed, they reject the Israeli peace settlements with Egypt and Jordan, and they both want Islam to reclaim their historical caliphate that dominated the Middle East, Asia and much of Europe.

Hamas won't settle for just Gaza.

What you are describing is isis, not hamas.

 

[SmokyPeat]

The reason Egypt wants nothing to do with Gazan refugees is because of the Muslim brotherhood lineage of Hamas.

 

[Sti-g]

You asked for proof. I and many others provided it to you.



And yet you are still taking the posture of “If it happened”? Are you a holocaust denier too? Where is the proof?

But you believe Hamas when they say that IDF bombed a hospital and killed 500? Without asking for proof. And then it turns out Hamas bombed their own hospital and 50 people died.

If you want to contribute something positive, try to suggest a solution instead of childish empty laughable pleas for proof and restating colonial/oppression/victim nonsense. Your current efforts are not remotely persuasive and just reinforce the view that palestinian supporters are either devote muslims blinded by their religion or immature sophomoric undergraduates or I guess, lingering antisemites, although I think the latter group is smaller than the other two.

All my "if statements" are for the over exaggerated claims of mass rapes and torture etc. It is pretty clear that civilians are killed by hamas. But the tone of the narrative pushed by Israel is very different. There is an effort to paint a picture as if hamas just wanted to rape people and kill babies. Therefore israel has a right to genocide.

Do you understand that hamas primarily attacked military posts, even captured some (imagine, Israel loosing land for the first time in a long time). Have you not seen multiple reports from Israeli citizens describing how their military attacked them (as in citizens)? The audio from apache helicopter pilot being concerned about killing Israelis but told to continue firing? Are you not aware of hanibal directive and how Israeli supremecourt repeatedly banned this but military carried on this directive? Oct 7 was a tragedy. Civilians should not have been harmed. But there is massive exaggeration on what happened.

In anyways, do you think what happened in Oct 7 justifies leveling a whole city? Killing 30k people? Dropping, what more than 30k bombs now? Do you think this is a normal response? To me it looks like vengeance, pure evil. In order for public to not see this genocide as it is, there is an attempt to blow it our of proportion. Even our president publicly lied about 40 beheaded babies. Why would someone deliberately lie?

 

[Sti-g]

That was precisely my view too — up to October 7.

Now, after the most gruesome display of massive hand-to-hand torture and barbarism on civilians since ? the Vikings? the world will be a better place in the long run for Israel and the rest of civilization to take out all who lead and participated in any way in October 7 under the rules of international law.

Not since Vikings. These things happen to Palestinians on a regular basis.

 

[Sti-g]

Yes, there was prolific Arab immigration into the Palestine mandate due to the economic and agricultural improvements made by both European Jews and the British. The Arabs are no different than any other population in that regard. People will move to where the quality of life is better.

The Smoking Gun: Arab Immigration into Palestine, 1922-1931

In deep antiquity, particularly in Egypt, the early civilization where the arts were most strongly developed, the visualization was aspective: that is the artist, working in paint or low-relief sculpture, conveyed to his two-dimensional surface not so

www.meforum.org

Interesting. Tell us more about why and how European Jews came to Palestine.

 

[SmokyPeat]

Interesting. Tell us more about why and how European Jews came to Palestine.

They came by land and sea. Largely to escape persecution.

 

[indysurfer]

Anyway, even they don't manage to claim that the growth of the Palestinian population was mainly driven by immigration, while the Jewish was based on immigration from Europe.

Who cares?

Lebanon used to be a majority Christian nation just a few decades ago before Palestinians set up camp and started civil wars (after getting kicked out of Jordan for doing the same thing).

Is anyone arguing that these Palestinians Muslims and Arabs need to be kicked out of Lebanon so Lebanon can become a Christian majority nation again?

The reality of today is that Jews live in Israel and are not going to be ethnically cleansed from the Region by Islamists. Especially after the last decade when we saw Hamas' brother in arms (ISIS) murder and rape their way through Syria and Iraq destroying all the ancient Christian and Yezidi communities.

 

[Sti-g]

Video of Gaza one week before the war.

Grotesque how Hamas supporters pretend that Gaza is an unbearable hell hole that warranted the atrocities on 10/7.

I don't know what that video is proving. Are you saying that Gaza is not surrounded by walls/fences? And Israel is in control of what goes in and out? Are you in denial.

Here, a video from North Korea. Looks like another great place to live.

 

[Sti-g]

They came by land and sea. Largely to escape persecution.

Good start. They were escaping because of 100s of years of antisemitism, perpetrated by Europeans.

What did they do when they arrived at Palestine?

 

[Sti-g]

The idea that any and all criticism of the Israeli government and Israel is criticized as antisemitism is itself an antisemitic trope (moderator edit: A…) strawman is a strawman and an antisemite to boot.

So if I criticize Israeli government, I'm an antisemite.
If I complain that I'm called an antisemite because I criticized Israel, I'm again an antisemite.
Oh, yes I'm sure you will call me antisemite because of this post as well. I cannot win.

 

[SmokyPeat]

Good start. They were escaping because of 100s of years of antisemitism, perpetrated by Europeans.

What did they do when they arrived at Palestine?

I assume they unpacked their luggage.

 

[Sti-g]

The term antisemitism has kind of been co-opted to apply to anti-Jewish sentiment when Arabs are technically a Semitic people too.

The way the term antisemitism is used is very unfortunate. It has been weaponized and used as a tool to silence any dissent to Israel. The problem is, this kind of overuse of the term itself is causing people to hate jews as a reaction. It is wrong and illogical... but that's what an average person do these days (thanks to our education system for removing critical thinking from curriculum).

If you insist Israel = all the jews in the world and if you keep insisting that Israel=jews are always in constant threat of annihilation (sorry for exaggeration) this is what you get. Let me be clear (and probably get labeled as antisemite along the way): Actions of people like Netanyahu causes actual antisemitism. Yes, there is real antisemitism in the world, just like there is real islamophobia, racism against black people etc. But you have to be careful not to push a narrative to a point where you start get counter reaction.

 

[Sti-g]

I assume they unpacked their luggage.

Yeah, probably as a first step. Killing & forcing out all the local jews and muslims came later.