HV Battery Died with 7 miles range left showing on Range display

[AAKEE]

In other words, you are saying that there is a battery issue, I think.

Not really a battery issue. It might be possible but it doesn’t have to be that way.

All it takes is a BMS that miscalculates the battery capacity.
I have seen quite many posts in forums/facebooks about older S stopping before 0%.

I would guess that it is less common on 3/Y-series cars, as Tesla probably learned.

That seems likely. I have experienced so many strange issues with my new MYLR that I have not yet developed much faith in anything, but I am glad to hear that you have had good luck with low range indications and cushions.

I have used teslafi and teslalogger and have followed the vars close by my interrest.
The capacity estimate has mostly been very good. This means the calculated SOC during a drive also is good/precise.

I only had one real off on my M3P and it was a gross underestimate.

The SOC swing after a drive/longer drive tell us about the BMS capacity estimate.

 

[ewoodrick]

I will supercharge when needed, but obviously that’s hard on a pack so avoid it as possible. For the same reason I drift towards lower rate DC fast chargers when I can linger over a meal or a beer. I suppose I’ve dc charged 8-9 times in its life.

All reviews and studies indicate just the opposite. Supercharging represents no impact to the battery.

Tesla controls the batteries with such precision that they just don't allow it to have any impact on the battery.

And most of the longest range Teslas? They ONLY Supercharge.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Supercharging represents no impact to the battery.

Remember the data published by Tesla provides the range of the packs showing no significant difference (as would be expected). So no impact on energy content (I don't think there's really much data to indicate it would be otherwise).

This doesn't really provide an idea of lifetime of the pack unless they also include dead packs in the data set.

Supercharge when needed and don't worry about it. Precondition extensively whenever possible.

 

[AAKEE]

All reviews and studies indicate just the opposite. Supercharging represents no impact to the battery.

I wouldnt be so sure about that. I would say that there is only a few studies that think they found no degradation from fast charging.

Fast charging wears on the batteries.
But normal amount of supercharging is not a problem.

 

[ewoodrick]

I wouldnt be so sure about that. I would say that there is only a few studies that think they found no degradation from fast charging.

Fast charging wears on the batteries.
But normal amount of supercharging is not a problem.

You know the details about this. In what way is Tesla allowing Fast Charging to harm the batteries?
Sure, fast charging can harm batteries, but Tesla controls all those parameters.

Don't perpetuate the myths.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

You know the details about this. In what way is Tesla allowing Fast Charging to harm the batteries?
Sure, fast charging can harm batteries, but Tesla controls all those parameters.

Don't perpetuate the myths.

I think in general more data is needed on this topic. So far Tesla has not provided any data on it.

 

[ewoodrick]

I think in general more data is needed on this topic. So far Tesla has not provided any data on it.

Okay.

Do you have any evidence to the contrary? Is there any data showing the vehicles that Supercharge more have shorter battery lives?

it's often hard to prove the negative.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Okay.

Do you have any evidence to the contrary? Is there any data showing the vehicles that Supercharge more have shorter battery lives?

it's often hard to prove the negative.

No. I have zero data.

From a physical perspective there are reasons to think it will be more stressful and increases the potential of lithium plating substantially (this is why Tesla warms the batteries and limits the rate).

It’s not magic to cram massive amounts of energy into a pack quickly. It’s an engineered process, probably taking the pack right to the limit of what Tesla believes will be ok for their warranty reserve.

 

[AAKEE]

Don't perpetuate the myths.

Tesla tell us that the frequency of supercharging can affect range in the manual and online:

From tesla.com:

From my S manual:
(In swedish, I didnt care to download a english version, but in short it states the same as on tesla.com)


So, I find it strange that Tesla would spread myths.

You know the details about this. In what way is Tesla allowing Fast Charging to harm the batteries?

The issue is lithium plating.

This is Panasonic ncr18650, virtually the same as model S/X. In other tests the exact S cells from a S car behaves very similar to regular Panasonic ncr18650.
Its clear that higher charging rate than 1.0A (equals 0.35C or ~ 35kW in a S or ~ 27kW in a 3).

This is LG M-50, the cell used in 3/Y for a couple of years in Europe and other places, now also in 3 in US:

We can see that even a mildly increased charge rate will introduce lithium plating.
Reducing the C-rate at higher SOC as Tesla do is good but not a complete solution.

Sure, fast charging can harm batteries, but Tesla controls all those parameters.

Lithium plating comes from high currents during charging.
It can be avoided by reducing the charging rate and/or heating the battery.

I always preheat when I can.
Tesla can not make sure that all supercharging starts with a preheated battery.
When supercharging the battery will be preheated until reaching the target temp (quite high) even if the car was completely preconditioned before, this is to reduce the negative effects of fast charging.
The only way to completely remove the negative effects of Supercharging would be to have the charging power reduced quite much.

There is a recovery effect where plated lithium is restored to cyclabe lithium again. Cycling at normal C-rates will do this (AC-charging, normal driving). We need several cycles between/after fast charging to do this, and all lithium plating would most probably not be restored.

I know one Model 3 P here in sweden which was almost only supercharged. (I think it was a rate of ~80-85% according to BMS data read by SMT).
The battery broke north of the warranty (230K km / 140K mi or so).
The car was taken to a EV Battery company (that fix Tesla batteries) and the conclusion was that there where some cells that was completely dead due to short circuit in the cells.
Ended up with getting a used battery via that EV company.

We know from the research that lithium plating comes from high charging currents and we know that the end result if it is let go to far is shorted cells.

This car did only show ~12% degradation a short time before according to the BMS via SMT, and ~10% less range displayed.

So we also learn that lithium plating might not always show clearly as loss of range, but the lithium plating is there and has already caused the damage.

(This car was always preconditioned before supercharging sessions sccording to the owner.)

Recommend reading:
Good report
(Many reports focused on lithium plating and fast charging techniques are not open, so I can not give a link, even when having the report).

 

[dafish]

I don’t know any that have studied this that doubt degradation occurs to nmc lion cells charged at rates of 1c and higher. As I recall this is attributed to plating acceleration. Such can be exacerbated by high C rates of charge or discharge as well of higher SoC. course the Tesla BMS, in my mind state of the art, does much to manage this. It’s job, yes? I have no doubt Tesla has mitigated, but not fully eliminated, those factors. If there are those that believe Tesla has fully overcome the inherent nature of nmc lion cells, swell. I wish them well.

As for quality’s links for more reading on your own:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2352152X22008209

Lithium ion battery degradation: what you need to know - Physical Chemistry Chemical Physics (RSC Publishing) DOI:10.1039/D1CP00359C

 

[E90alex]

Tesla can’t defy the laws of physics and chemistry.

 

[DrGriz]

Tesla tell us that the frequency of supercharging can affect range in the manual and online:

From tesla.com:
View attachment 1040383

From my S manual:
(In swedish, I didnt care to download a english version, but in short it states the same as on tesla.com)
View attachment 1040384

So, I find it strange that Tesla would spread myths.



The issue is lithium plating.

This is Panasonic ncr18650, virtually the same as model S/X. In other tests the exact S cells from a S car behaves very similar to regular Panasonic ncr18650.
Its clear that higher charging rate than 1.0A (equals 0.35C or ~ 35kW in a S or ~ 27kW in a 3).
View attachment 1040385

This is LG M-50, the cell used in 3/Y for a couple of years in Europe and other places, now also in 3 in US:
View attachment 1040388

We can see that even a mildly increased charge rate will introduce lithium plating.
Reducing the C-rate at higher SOC as Tesla do is good but not a complete solution.

Lithium plating comes from high currents during charging.
It can be avoided by reducing the charging rate and/or heating the battery.

I always preheat when I can.
Tesla can not make sure that all supercharging starts with a preheated battery.
When supercharging the battery will be preheated until reaching the target temp (quite high) even if the car was completely preconditioned before, this is to reduce the negative effects of fast charging.
The only way to completely remove the negative effects of Supercharging would be to have the charging power reduced quite much.

There is a recovery effect where plated lithium is restored to cyclabe lithium again. Cycling at normal C-rates will do this (AC-charging, normal driving). We need several cycles between/after fast charging to do this, and all lithium plating would most probably not be restored.

I know one Model 3 P here in sweden which was almost only supercharged. (I think it was a rate of ~80-85% according to BMS data read by SMT).
The battery broke north of the warranty (230K km / 140K mi or so).
The car was taken to a EV Battery company (that fix Tesla batteries) and the conclusion was that there where some cells that was completely dead due to short circuit in the cells.
Ended up with getting a used battery via that EV company.

We know from the research that lithium plating comes from high charging currents and we know that the end result if it is let go to far is shorted cells.

This car did only show ~12% degradation a short time before according to the BMS via SMT, and ~10% less range displayed.

So we also learn that lithium plating might not always show clearly as loss of range, but the lithium plating is there and has already caused the damage.

(This car was always preconditioned before supercharging sessions sccording to the owner.)

Recommend reading:
Good report
(Many reports focused on lithium plating and fast charging techniques are not open, so I can not give a link, even when having the report).

It would be so nice of Tesla to give us an option to precondition our batteries on the way to a non-SC. Some of us have no choice but to charge at those when travelling.

 

[AAKEE]

It would be so nice of Tesla to give us an option to precondition our batteries on the way to a non-SC. Some of us have no choice but to charge at those when travelling.

Yes, I think so.

When I had my M3P And had the car wirth low SOC at work and had to charge fro the long drive home I initially went to a in town 25kW DC charger as Tesla heats the battery at any DC charger. I waited until the cell temp was 45C or so, then I went to the local 200kW charger (no Tesla Supercharger in vicinity.

With the Plaid, there is the Dragstrip mode, heating the battery. I also bought the S3XY buttons to have a better turn signal option than the stalkless buttons.
With that, the I also got the option to use a button to precondition the battery, never tested that yet but I think I would have bought the S3XY buttons only for that if I still had the M3P.

 

[flixden]

All reviews and studies indicate just the opposite. Supercharging represents no impact to the battery.

Tesla controls the batteries with such precision that they just don't allow it to have any impact on the battery.

And most of the longest range Teslas? They ONLY Supercharge.

Degradation can be reduced, but Tesla won't be able to defy physics.

 

[ewoodrick]

Degradation can be reduced, but Tesla won't be able to defy physics.

And what are the "physics" you refer to? Which are the laws that are causing significant degradation?

Battery temperature is probably the biggest and Tesla controls this pretty well.

Give me the physics AND the percentage degradation expected.

Sure high current charging may cause degradation. But if it's 0.5% over 10 years, I really don't care.

It's similar to holding a battery at 100%. Yes, it's something in the neighborhood (and I forgotten the exact numbers) of 7%.
But of that about 3% is expected just from aging,
And that's from 1 YEAR at 100%.

Just looking at a batter causes degradation. The question is how much.

 

[AAKEE]

And what are the "physics" you refer to? Which are the laws that are causing significant degradation?

Battery temperature is probably the biggest and Tesla controls this pretty well.

Give me the physics AND the percentage degradation expected.

Sure high current charging may cause degradation. But if it's 0.5% over 10 years, I really don't care.

It's similar to holding a battery at 100%. Yes, it's something in the neighborhood (and I forgotten the exact numbers) of 7%.
But of that about 3% is expected just from aging,
And that's from 1 YEAR at 100%.

Just looking at a batter causes degradation. The question is how much.

You already have some data about the increased degradation in post 209.

 

[ewoodrick]

You already have some data about the increased degradation in post 209.

So then translate it into percentage range decrease expected at 10 years or 200,000 miles.

 

[LostVector]

In other words, you are saying that there is a battery issue, I think. That seems likely. I have experienced so many strange issues with my new MYLR that I have not yet developed much faith in anything, but I am glad to hear that you have had good luck with low range indications and cushions.

I am between houses, so will supercharge a few times before moving. I'm very favorably impressed with the SC network. Granted, the car noises and steam blowing off while supercharging are a little disconcerting.

There is a failure mode with li-ion batteries where the electrolyte oxidizes and coats the negative electrode. It causes relatively sudden / catastrophic loss of capacity. I would not be surprised if the BMS is just not well equipped to deal with this failure mode and tell you what is actually going on inside the battery. It just shuts down due to a sudden and unexpected loss of voltage below a certain estimated SoC.

It's described in this video at 35:50.

 

[LostVector]

Tesla tell us that the frequency of supercharging can affect range in the manual and online:

From tesla.com:
View attachment 1040383

From my S manual:
(In swedish, I didnt care to download a english version, but in short it states the same as on tesla.com)
View attachment 1040384

So, I find it strange that Tesla would spread myths.



The issue is lithium plating.

This is Panasonic ncr18650, virtually the same as model S/X. In other tests the exact S cells from a S car behaves very similar to regular Panasonic ncr18650.
Its clear that higher charging rate than 1.0A (equals 0.35C or ~ 35kW in a S or ~ 27kW in a 3).
View attachment 1040385

This is LG M-50, the cell used in 3/Y for a couple of years in Europe and other places, now also in 3 in US:
View attachment 1040388

We can see that even a mildly increased charge rate will introduce lithium plating.
Reducing the C-rate at higher SOC as Tesla do is good but not a complete solution.

Lithium plating comes from high currents during charging.
It can be avoided by reducing the charging rate and/or heating the battery.

I always preheat when I can.
Tesla can not make sure that all supercharging starts with a preheated battery.
When supercharging the battery will be preheated until reaching the target temp (quite high) even if the car was completely preconditioned before, this is to reduce the negative effects of fast charging.
The only way to completely remove the negative effects of Supercharging would be to have the charging power reduced quite much.

There is a recovery effect where plated lithium is restored to cyclabe lithium again. Cycling at normal C-rates will do this (AC-charging, normal driving). We need several cycles between/after fast charging to do this, and all lithium plating would most probably not be restored.

I know one Model 3 P here in sweden which was almost only supercharged. (I think it was a rate of ~80-85% according to BMS data read by SMT).
The battery broke north of the warranty (230K km / 140K mi or so).
The car was taken to a EV Battery company (that fix Tesla batteries) and the conclusion was that there where some cells that was completely dead due to short circuit in the cells.
Ended up with getting a used battery via that EV company.

We know from the research that lithium plating comes from high charging currents and we know that the end result if it is let go to far is shorted cells.

This car did only show ~12% degradation a short time before according to the BMS via SMT, and ~10% less range displayed.

So we also learn that lithium plating might not always show clearly as loss of range, but the lithium plating is there and has already caused the damage.

(This car was always preconditioned before supercharging sessions sccording to the owner.)

Recommend reading:
Good report
(Many reports focused on lithium plating and fast charging techniques are not open, so I can not give a link, even when having the report).

I believe the charging curve Tesla uses while supercharging mitigates a lot of the wear on the battery, correct? Of course supercharging isn't going to produce *less* wear on the battery than Level 2 charging, but the data out there seems to indicate supercharging batteries today isn't as scary as it was thought to be.

 

[AAKEE]

There is a failure mode with li-ion batteries where the electrolyte oxidizes and coats the negative electrode. It causes relatively sudden / catastrophic loss of capacity.

Electrolyte oxidation happens at very high voltage - in general above the maximum voltage lithium ion batteries use.

4.20V/cell is the 100% that Tesla use. The examples in Jeffs presentation is above 4.20V.

I havent studied the electrolyte oxidation specifically but I would guess that this is a non issue for EV users.

We do not use high voltage that often in general, as daily charging is ~80-90% (4.0-4.1V) or below. Most of us do not cycle the cells to 4.20V each time.

I would not be surprised if the BMS is just not well equipped to deal with this failure mode and tell you what is actually going on inside the battery.

It just shuts down due to a sudden and unexpected loss of voltage below a certain estimated SoC.

The failure mode described do not mean this. It means that the cell rapidly looses capacity in a low number of cycles, and then die - dead like in not possible to charge.

When EV’s stops at whatever percentage above 0% displayed it do come from the fact that SOC can not be measured when driving (or charging).

The State of charge is measured by measuring the resting voltage (OCV) of the battery (-cells).

When driving (or charging) the BMS need to calculate the estimated SOC.
The calculation depends on the estimated capacity (and also the SOC). Any fault in estimated capacity or estimated SOC before the drive ends up in a error in the resulting estimated SOC we se on the display.