I hope you are correct. I’d love to defect from the grid. Can you provide supporting info?
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California Utilities Plan All Out War On Solar, Please Read And Help
- Thread starter gene
- Start date
Can you forward me articles/videos that specifically detail this? I've yet to ever find one and I keep my eyes open for them. I see blurbs and notes (that even SDGE sent when I got solar), but can't find a single case of someone who was on-grid and straight up left.
I'd assume the info will be more out there if it's as easy/simple as people say (and no, I'm not talking about the stop paying your bill and see what happens route).
Until I see a detailed case/plan/route to do it, I still think it's an urban myth. Are those 3 families you mention out in the boonies/rural areas?
it looks like off-grid is subject to local zoning and other regulations.
www.primalsurvivor.net
California Off Grid Laws: An In-Depth Guide
Want to live off grid in California? Here is what you need to know about California off grid laws for power, outhouses, rainwater harvesting and more.
www.primalsurvivor.net
For a few years, perhaps 10-20 years back HomePower Magazine had articles about "Guerilla Solar",
Folks not bothering to get PTO's (Permission To Operate) but just energizing their systems and slowing down their electric meters or even reversing them.
I personally had my first system installed at a previous residence about 25 years ago, and energized.
The electric company didn't want to hear about it even though I contacted them multiple times.
My original meter would occasionally reverse and count down as it was non-racheting (I made around 2 megawatt hours over 21 years before decomission)
(Tiny system and inefficient meter and inefficient Amorphous Silicon panels)
the reversing, non-racheting meter was replaced by an "Only count UP" meter with a black/white spinner that counted up no matter if spinning clockwise or counterclockwise so the times I produced and sent to the grid I was charged retail for the excess electricity I made.
I would suggest you look over the free issues of Home Power or contact any of the authors (still alive) about "Guerilla Solar"
Home Power Magazine | Downloadable Archive | Browse
Browse 188 digital back issues of Home Power magazine in PDF and register to download any or all of them for free.
www.homepower.com
From Big Dog's post link: https://www.cailaw.org/media/files/IEL/Publications/2016/grid-detection-vol10no1.pdf
Some excepts:
"A. The California Code of Regulations Requires Interconnection With the Electric
Utility Grid.
The following parts of Title 24 explicitly govern installation of solar energy systems: (1)
the Building Code; (2) the Residential Code; (3) the Electrical Code; (4) the Mechanical Code;
(5) the Energy Code; and (6) the Fire Code. With the exception of the Energy Code, the others
are expressly permissive of off-grid systems.
1. The California Energy Code Requires Interconnection With The Grid for
Residential Installation"
"IV. Conclusion.
The most significant barriers to off-grid residential PV systems at this point are: (1) the
California Energy Code’s requirement of interconnection in residential installations; and (2)
undefined reliability standards that, once defined, may be difficult for solar-plus-battery
technologies to satisfy. Under the current regulatory framework, grid defection and the utility
death spiral should not occur in California"
Some excepts:
"A. The California Code of Regulations Requires Interconnection With the Electric
Utility Grid.
The following parts of Title 24 explicitly govern installation of solar energy systems: (1)
the Building Code; (2) the Residential Code; (3) the Electrical Code; (4) the Mechanical Code;
(5) the Energy Code; and (6) the Fire Code. With the exception of the Energy Code, the others
are expressly permissive of off-grid systems.
1. The California Energy Code Requires Interconnection With The Grid for
Residential Installation"
"IV. Conclusion.
The most significant barriers to off-grid residential PV systems at this point are: (1) the
California Energy Code’s requirement of interconnection in residential installations; and (2)
undefined reliability standards that, once defined, may be difficult for solar-plus-battery
technologies to satisfy. Under the current regulatory framework, grid defection and the utility
death spiral should not occur in California"
cpa
Active Member
Not a lawyer here.
For this particular endeavor, it would first have to reach the Supremes. First a trial in California Superior Court. Then the loser appeals to the California Court of Appeals. Then that loser would appeal to the California Supreme Court. Then, unless this is a matter that touches on the US Constitution, the Supremes would not even consider it.
Of course smart and cunning lawyers can phrase their argument to try to persuade the Supremes to take it up. But then four of the justices have to agree to certiorari. With this current make up of the Court, that is a real long shot.
I would estimate that this entire process would take a good 8-10 years or longer. (See the drawn out litigation between LADWP and the Save Mono Lake Committee. I think that was well over ten years before final adjudication. It never went to the US Supreme Court.)
Since I ain't no lawyer, I do not know when a suit of this sort will be ripe for filing. Can it be filed now? When the CPUC authorizes it? When the first bill goes out that implements the fee? Can the plaintiffs receive a stay on the fee while the matter is litigated? Will the utilities keep an accrual of assessed but unpaid fees during the stay?
(Sorry!)
Jeremy3292
Active Member
One thing you will learn or you have already learned is that it’s not left vs right, Republican vs Democrat, conservative vs liberal - it’s those with power vs those without power. Each party simply pushes an agenda in pursuit of power. Both parties are exactly the same with no real morals or beliefs. Whatever wins or gains power is the name of the game. Hence why “Republican Florida” and “liberal California” have essentially ended up at the same place - no benefit or good for the citizens of their states.
Jeremy3292
Active Member
Remember, there will never be enough money or taxes in liberal states. They are always inventing new ways to tax you in the name of progress. Tax and spend, tax and spend, tax and spend. Those exorbitant taxes you pay don’t go to the poor or those in need, they go to the same corporations and politicians Republicans send their under the table dollars to. If you’re (proverbial you) too busy fighting your neighbor on their political views your focus isn’t on how corrupt both parties are, which is what they want us to do.
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At the end of the day, I think nearly every state has net metering destroyed/altered since the whole power situation / structure doesn't work for a lot of states/companies/people/etc anymore with how it's set up with solar now. No doubt NEM probably couldn't have stayed at 1:1 forever, but a part of this is probably due to greedy utilities (not surprising as they're a corporation) making prices so high that anyone with $$ will go solar to tell them FU to simply save $$. If power wasn't that expensive, it wouldn't be like this.
Now, they will legislate to make sure everyone is forced to support these for profit entities in their words, for the greater good of everyone or the "grid".
I think FL is doing this with their insurance markets too and just penalize everyone else. This is why off-grid gets brought up/discussed a lot. If stupid people or people you don't want agree with makes greedy/bad decisions affecting you, people want out.
It's not even a Dem/Republican thing. NV (Purple) gutted NEM, then backed out, FL (Red) tried to gut it I think as well, TX (Red) laughs at everyone else, but has power issues as well now and more folks can chime in on complaining about their utility there.
Bottom line I keep harping at is that the the utility is a for profit corporation. They have no reason to care about anything else but profits. That's the main problem that needs to be addressed. PG&E in bankruptcy was the best time. Newsom/CPUC failed at their jobs.
Like gas prices today (low again), I think for folks who use EVs primarily, you tend to not care since you have options to just not buy it. This should be easier/possible with electricity.
I simply don't like large utility scale solutions and massive transmission lines (most of the fire causes), but this is how they make their $$. SDG&E during the cold spell said they don't make power and just buy it on the open market. That, in and of itself is part of the problem.
Now, they will legislate to make sure everyone is forced to support these for profit entities in their words, for the greater good of everyone or the "grid".
I think FL is doing this with their insurance markets too and just penalize everyone else. This is why off-grid gets brought up/discussed a lot. If stupid people or people you don't want agree with makes greedy/bad decisions affecting you, people want out.
It's not even a Dem/Republican thing. NV (Purple) gutted NEM, then backed out, FL (Red) tried to gut it I think as well, TX (Red) laughs at everyone else, but has power issues as well now and more folks can chime in on complaining about their utility there.
Bottom line I keep harping at is that the the utility is a for profit corporation. They have no reason to care about anything else but profits. That's the main problem that needs to be addressed. PG&E in bankruptcy was the best time. Newsom/CPUC failed at their jobs.
Like gas prices today (low again), I think for folks who use EVs primarily, you tend to not care since you have options to just not buy it. This should be easier/possible with electricity.
I simply don't like large utility scale solutions and massive transmission lines (most of the fire causes), but this is how they make their $$. SDG&E during the cold spell said they don't make power and just buy it on the open market. That, in and of itself is part of the problem.
Confused. You want me to forward you proof that grid defection is legal even though there's no law that prevents it and others do it? You're asking me to prove a negative.
That's his interpretation. That's not what the code actually says. Off grid power generation in California is a moderate sized business that is growing every day and is about to explode later this year if this insanity isn't stopped.
Get educated. It's illegal. You have to get a special dispensation and that's only if there is no way to run a power line to your house. The laws are designed to protect the monopolies/the utilities.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
With the homeless crisis in CA it would be 'interesting' to see someone test that.
Reporter: 'Why were you evicted?'
Home owner: 'My house doesn't have power.'
Reporter: Looks at house - 'I see lights and your AC is running...'
Home owner: 'It's the wrong kind of power.'
I'm sure that will fly....
Prove it. I personally know several who are went off grid and have never had an issue with it.
Well obviously you don't know what you're talking about in Florida. We tried to go off grid in a brand new house we built only 4 years ago and you cannot get an occupancy permit without being connected. There probably are places where that's not true but again that's because there are no power lines there and it's an open question whether or not you can get a building permit on those. As for your "personal knowledge" I'd love to know where these "personal knowledge" sources are in florida. Certainly nowhere in Southwest Florida. Like I said please get educated. FPL has an extremely effective Lobby in Florida ensuring that no one can build an occupancy outside of Incorporated townships that create their own microgrid without a connection to FPL. And that's exactly what a number of communities are doing including Babcock Ranch and some other much smaller microgrid enterprises. If you're skeptical why don't you look it up instead of voting down my posts from ignorance/ideology.
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nwdiver
Well-Known Member
At least one judge ruled you can live off-grid in FL. You just can't use public sewage without paying a water bill. Which kind of makes sense since the water bill probably pays for sewage treatment.
It all depends on where you are in Florida. There's no state law but lots of cities have local laws saying you have to be connected but even then there are ways around it.
At any rate, this kind of thing is going to go more mainstream as utilities around the country fight their own death spirals that they're perpetuating with policies designed to make you more dependent on them and suck more money from your pockets. Eventually this is going to end up in front of the Supreme Court.
As storage gets cheaper and generation equipment continues to plummet in price, it will eventually be more advantageous to disconnect from the grid unless utilities start turning things around and making it more advantageous to stay connected. Utilities are monopolies right now because in 99% of the US, you have no choice where to buy your electricity from off the grid. But now they have to compete with self generation and they'll be lobbying to create laws that force you to stay connected. Eventually the public will decide to wield enough influence to vote out politicians that pass these types of laws, like AB205, without a public vote.
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Yes there are places where you can do it but I'm telling you they're in the minority and FPL has an extremely good death lock on a whole lot of areas. There are places where they don't have it and that's puzzling because it creates a funny void in an otherwise homogeneous map of control. And I agree with you this is going to end up in front of first the state courts and then eventually some version of a state supreme or federal Supreme Court to determine whether or not you can legislate somebody belonging to a grid. I can't believe that there's something in the Constitution requiring participation in a grid or any version of a utility but I'm no expert on constitutional law. What is very clear is that every utility sees rooftop solar as an existential threat to their survival. And they are not misinformed or paranoid on that point. Because that's exactly what it is.
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I did some research on this and not surprisingly it turns out that it's the county that decides whether or not a connection to fpl is required. It's interesting that Charlotte County which is where we built our two properties has absolutely no exceptions and some other counties do. I'm going to do some more research and find out how those other counties like Collier and Lee got exemptions. I believe you have to apply individually however it's not automatic, and it may depend entirely on whether or not there's an existing power line on the street. More later. Apparently FPL has been spreading the corporate Kool-Aid that individual rooftop solar is for rich people while their solar is for the hoi polloi. They've also been very skillful in rejiggering their cost equations so now they're estimating that 12 cents per kilowatt hour is the delivery charge while only two cents is the production charge. If you're a net energy producer for the year which we are to the tune of more than two megawatts you get the two cents. Total b******* of course and probably violating physical law because most of their power still comes from natural gas and if you had 100% energy conversion from natural gas heat into kinetic energy I don't believe you could do it for two cents a kilowatt hour. And of course it's not even close to 100% efficiency it's probably closer to 35%. If you have a so-called secondary heat recapture turbine apparently you can get to over 50%, but even that does not yield you two cents a kilowatt hour at current natural gas prices. It's all about gaming the system, conning The Regulators who are minimally sophisticated, and continuing to soak the populace - the goose that's laying all the golden eggs.
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The law from everything I've seen is more that you can't be disconnected from the grid or your home is flagged as unhabitable. It shouldn't be that hard to find or document, list out all the steps, find a video, etc of someone in say, San Francisco, suburbs in San Diego, etc doing this if what you claim is an actual thing.
Again, I'm just saying point me to something that's obvious or something that can be ELI5.
Even I've mentioned that SDG&E sent me emails that I can disconnect from the grid when I got PTO, but the lack of me finding anyone actually doing it makes me wonder how possible that really is or why this is even debated/discussed to begin with.
It's not like someone saying EVs are fake and not real, they really use gas, etc.
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