turn signals

Manntis · 06-30-2008, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albern

I don't know if anyone has noticed but automakers seem to be switching to red rear turn indicators as oppose to orange ones. I am aware that in North America rear lights can only be white, red, and orange. To me red should be reserved for the fog/parking and break lamps, while orange is strictly for turn indicators (and white obviously for reverse). People are going to get confused when they see a flashing red light that refers to a lane change while the driver ahead intends to slow down.

How is that confusing? The turn indicators pulse on and off, and on one side of the car only to indicate the direction of the turn. Braking lamps come on full, no pulsing, on both sides of the car.

Perhaps an idiot focusing on colour only, and ignoring all other visual data, would be confused... but really; if they're that easily confused should they really be driving in the first place?

SByer · 06-30-2008, 06:42 PM

I'm sorry, but no. Blinking red for turn indicators is lame: they go invisible in a number of situations (especially near sunset). Amber is the right answer.

Manntis · 07-01-2008, 06:24 PM

Having driven in North America for 20 years (driving a car with amber turn indicators, incidentally) and 2 of which were living in LA, I can say I've NEVER seen a car's red indicator go invisible on me, at sunset or otherwise. The bulbs are visible in the glare of day, darkness of night, and in between at dusk. If red were that dangerous, it wouldn't be used as a brake lamp colour.

Amber v. red are two different ways of accomplishing the same thing. Neither is superior to the other, though red has a slight cost advantage by enabling the use of a dual filament bulb in one housing as opposed to a dedicated rear turn indicator lamp.

You're more accustomed to, and therefore more comfortable with, a certain way and that's fine. To argue that one is more confusing or disappears at sunset is complete nonsense.

TEG · 07-01-2008, 10:47 PM

Once and a while someone will be pulsing their brakes and using their red turn signal at the same time and I just see a flashing red on both sides... For a moment I am not sure if they are signaling right or left, or if they have their emergency flashers on. That was more of a problem before "CHIMSEL" (3rd brake light) which makes it more apparent when brake flashing is involved.

Sometimes you only see part of a car obscured in front of you so you don't see the other side or the 3rd brake light.
I prefer amber turn signals because it makes it immediately obvious that someone is signaling not pulsing their brakes even if you only see one corner of the vehicle.

Also in a sea of red tail lights at night in heavy traffic an amber turn signal stands out more from the crowd ahead.

Manntis · 07-01-2008, 11:47 PM

if they're that far ahead of you that another vehicle or several vehicles prevent you from seeing 1/2 their car and their CHMSL, why does it matter to you that they're turning anyhow? They're nowhere in your envelope.

Nor is it at all common for someone to pulse their brakes as regularly on-off-on-off as a turn signal.

Most people can reasonably understand that, regardless of red or amber colouring, a steady on-off-on-off on one side of a car is a turn indicator and lights on both sides coming on means braking - even if someone does pulse the brakes.

like I said, both do the same thing. I've nothing against amber turn signals, but the arguments presented to deride red indicators have been silly ones.

SByer · 07-02-2008, 11:28 AM

Well, the good argument is that the average time it takes to tell if a light is amber and blinking is less than the time it takes to tell is a light is red and blinking, since in the red case there's no color discernment (and, even worse, when using the double filament bulb, no positional discernment).

In the amber case, if the bulb is on, you can tell immediately. Otherwise, it's the average time until it blinks on, or 1/4 the cycle time, for an overall average of 1/8 the cycle time.

In the red case, the best case is if you can see the third brake light and know it's functional, in which case you still have to wait for a state change to be sure, meaning it's 1/4 cycle average, on or off. Worst case, without third brake light visibility and the blinker co-positioned with the brakes along the corner of the car (and no additional side turn markers, another particular annoyance), you have to wait for two state changes to be sure (though yes, most of us won't wait that long to assume the worst).

In any case, why the heck would you ever argue against the additional, useful piece of information (the differentiated color)?

Manntis · 07-02-2008, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SByer

Worst case, without third brake light visibility and the blinker co-positioned with the brakes along the corner of the car (and no additional side turn markers, another particular annoyance), you have to wait for two state changes to be sure (though yes, most of us won't wait that long to assume the worst).

With red/red they commonly are co-positioned - dual filament bulbs or, more recently, nested LEDs.

Albern was arguing red/red is confusing, but even hillbillies in the US have no trouble figuring out the red/red system. All the other arguments presented have been nonsensical (invisible at sunset? can't tell when a car far ahead and blocked by other cars is turning?) I've never said amber isn't useful, but that the reasons presented against red/red are - here it comes again - silly.

vfx · 07-02-2008, 09:47 PM

How do you see something going invisible?

TEG · 07-03-2008, 12:30 AM

This reminds me of something. Anyone remember the old Mercury Cougar tail-lights where it would cycle through 3 different lights in sequence so it looked like it was a moving indicator?

You have roadside signs with cycling arrows telling you to drive past in the direction of the arrow.

So when you have directional arrows it could mean one of two things - either the object with the arrows is about to move that direction (e.g.: turn signal) or you are meant to drive into the space indicated by the arrows (roadside sign). We all know what a flashing red or yellow light means on the side of a car, but temptations to make an actual animated arrow could be risky on a car parked on the side of the road. At night someone could mistake it for a sign that just means to go ahead and pass it.

vfx · 07-03-2008, 03:27 PM

TEG wrote:
"At night someone could mistake it for a sign that just means to go ahead and pass it. "

I thought that once too.

I saw the LED-looking turn signal arrow that was in a SUV side view mirror and thought briefly that it looked like it was blinking/ telling me go pass them on the left.

Reminds me of some comedian jokes.

"I approached an intersection and wanted to go the other way. I thought it might be illegal. Then I saw the sign that said, "no, U turn"!!!"