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Thread: Model S Performance vs BMW M5

  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by lolachampcar View Post
    I did not see this observation in the thread but may have missed it (there is a lot of thread here).

    The MS was the single strangest street car I have ever driven. ALL street cars I had driven to that point provide a "roll over the sidewall" feel under lateral load. This includes the many M5s I have owned and even more rarified hardware like the F458. The MS gave me a "roll through the sidewall" feel. The only time I have felt this is in a purpose built race car and normally only one with a purpose built engine where the crankshaft has been placed low in the sump and drop gears are used to raise the rotation to the transmission.

    Once what my butt was telling me sunk in, I tried to mess with the car (to the extent I could with my Tesla minder) by abruptly lifting with mid corner lateral load. Like a purpose built race car, the MS did not lift and rotate but rather felt like it wanted to drift rotate. What a wonderful feeling to have in a 4600 lb gorilla of a car.

    Like a kid at Christmas, I simply can not wait.
    NICE! I can't wait to turn some laps in my S at atlanta motorsports park!

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolachampcar View Post
    The MS gave me a "roll through the sidewall" feel.
    Earlier in the thread I listed some of MSPs advantages relative to conventional cars and how they are either cancelled completely or are less important on the track (economy, noise etc), or can partially be compensated for (instant response, gearbox). I forgot the most important one, lower CG and better weight distribution. Thanks for pointing it out, this sounds extremely promising!

    I think this is Tesla's "secret weapon", but is it enough to make up for M5s much higher power/weight? What do you think? Will be very interesting to see how they compare.
    Last edited by eledille; 2012-11-27 at 01:39 AM.

  3. #483
    Senior Member lolachampcar's Avatar
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    I started a thread on another forum about battery replacement. I will not get into all the details here (boring) but my theory is that the per cell cost will stay stable while manufactures back fill with capacity. I concluded the cost of the battery will not fall. Another poster pointed out that fewer cells will provide the same capacity so price can fall. Made sense to me.

    The point of the above is that Tesla has created a product where performance can INCREASE with age. Spit ball an 8% increase in capacity per year over four years. I'll use 35% as the four year componded number. Cells make up a good bit of the pack weight so let's use round numbers and say the pack drops by a little less than a third or 300lbs. Stomp on the gas when you have two 150 lb guests then punt them and do it again. There is a big difference. Dropping 300lbs of battery will increase straight line and cornering performance. I can not think of another car that has the potential to improve with age. NEAT.

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolachampcar View Post
    Dropping 300lbs of battery will increase straight line and cornering performance. I can not think of another car that has the potential to improve with age. NEAT.
    Well, if you are talking about spending $$$ to improve performance, nothing beats turbo charged cars like the M5. Power is basically software-defined. Most turbo cars can be tuned to add 10% more power with software only. When performance parts become available, I expect at least 20% gains.

    Trends and potential are interesting, but the hear and now (in stock form) is most interesting, no?

  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolachampcar View Post
    ... I can not think of another car that has the potential to improve with age. NEAT.
    The Tesla Roadster.

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisn View Post
    I have never been in a production MSP, so can't comment directly, but my sense is that the "gadgetronics" of the M5 are better / more refined.
    I have driven both a production MSP and an M5. I feel that Tesla is well behind in "gadgetronics", and this almost pushed me to buy the Audi S6.

    To me, the M5 and S6 both felt like they had faster peak accleration. Frankly, the MSP's peak acceleration is underwhelming to me. I know I've seen the video clip where the M5 loses 2 out of 3 to the MSP. Did anyone else notice that the M5 was losing grip while the MSP was sticking? To my eyes, the M5 lost because it had too much power at low speed. None of the cars that I drove recently have slipped when I floored it going straight, so I'm not sure why the M5 did in that video.

    When I first drove MSP, I couldn't believe how good its traction control was. It works well to accelerate about as quickly as it can given the conditions. Then I drove the M5 and S6, and I swear their traction control is better. I guess Audi has Quattro, but somehow the M5 can compete despite being RWD and having a gasoline engine. Even in the video where the M5 tires are slipping for the first couple seconds, it does a reasonable job keeping pace with the MSP whose tires are sticking.

    As far as body roll goes on the cars, I didn't really feel it on any of the cars (I drove a Hyundai Genesis in my shopping, and this did have noticeable roll). MSP, M5, and S6 are all using air suspensions, right?

    As far as shifting goes, I can't believe how fast M5 and S6 can shift. It's a fraction of a second, and it's got to be some 5 times faster than the Infiniti M56. And yet even at a few hundred milliseconds, the delay is there and it annoys me. When you stomp the "gas" pedal on the MSP, it just goes. I imagine that was a big part of why for me, the MSP was simply more fun to drive.

    Because of that, I bought the MSP [or more specifically, agreed to buy one].

    But if I wanted a car that would get me the best track times, I would think the M5 would be a better choice over the MSP.
    I doubt chrisn is going to have to pay out on his dinner bet.

    Incidentally, I occasionally continued to post on the AudiWorld forums after telling them that I chose the Tesla. Most were quite gracious. A few are mad at USA policy that has provided Tesla some advantages. On the whole, while I was choosing between cars, I would say TMC and AudiWorld treated me about equally. Each had a couple of vocal members that thought I was a complete idiot for considering something else, and a bunch of people that wanted to provide some equanimous input.
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  7. #487
    V1538 Zextraterrestrial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolachampcar View Post
    I did not see this observation in the thread but may have missed it (there is a lot of thread here).

    The MS was the single strangest street car I have ever driven. ALL street cars I had driven to that point provide a "roll over the sidewall" feel under lateral load. This includes the many M5s I have owned and even more rarified hardware like the F458. The MS gave me a "roll through the sidewall" feel. The only time I have felt this is in a purpose built race car and normally only one with a purpose built engine where the crankshaft has been placed low in the sump and drop gears are used to raise the rotation to the transmission.

    Once what my butt was telling me sunk in, I tried to mess with the car (to the extent I could with my Tesla minder) by abruptly lifting with mid corner lateral load. Like a purpose built race car, the MS did not lift and rotate but rather felt like it wanted to drift rotate. What a wonderful feeling to have in a 4600 lb gorilla of a car.

    Like a kid at Christmas, I simply can not wait.
    YEESS ! +1 i couldn't explain it like you did. My first test drive had me swerving all over and just dumbfounded by the way the car goes 'around' the swerves

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisn View Post
    Well, if you are talking about spending $$$ to improve performance, nothing beats turbo charged cars like the M5. Power is basically software-defined. Most turbo cars can be tuned to add 10% more power with software only. When performance parts become available, I expect at least 20% gains.

    Trends and potential are interesting, but the hear and now (in stock form) is most interesting, no?
    And turboed engines will last 1 million miles?


    disclaimer...M5's and S6's are pretty sweet and if I wanted to buy gas (or if it was 10 years ago) I would definitely want one

    @ Derekt75 - Excellentchoice ;>
    Last edited by Zextraterrestrial; 2012-11-27 at 07:20 PM.
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  8. #488
    Roadster 919, S 2006 Doug_G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekt75 View Post
    To me, the M5 and S6 both felt like they had faster peak accleration.
    Very likely true. The thing that makes the Model S fast is that the acceleration "peak" is more of a plateau. It stays at the same acceleration level continuously, whereas ICE cars only have peak acceleration in a fairly narrow RPM range. So it only makes sense that to achieve the same 0-60 time the ICE would have periods of time with greater acceleration and periods of time with lesser acceleration.
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  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teslawisher View Post
    I'd love to see a tuner remove the speed limiter, add additional cooling for the PEM (if needed) and motor, and add a 2nd gear.
    Why all that? Why not removing the ballasts that lie in place of the front and back battery packs (and replacing them with high-density polyurethane foam)? That should reduce the car's weight by perhaps 300Kg, giving an extra 20% of acceleration. That should bring the car to mid 3s 0-60, besting anything BMW has ever made for a road.

  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekt75 View Post
    I have driven both a production MSP and an M5. I feel that Tesla is well behind in "gadgetronics", and this almost pushed me to buy the Audi S6.

    To me, the M5 and S6 both felt like they had faster peak accleration. Frankly, the MSP's peak acceleration is underwhelming to me. I know I've seen the video clip where the M5 loses 2 out of 3 to the MSP. Did anyone else notice that the M5 was losing grip while the MSP was sticking? To my eyes, the M5 lost because it had too much power at low speed. None of the cars that I drove recently have slipped when I floored it going straight, so I'm not sure why the M5 did in that video.

    When I first drove MSP, I couldn't believe how good its traction control was. It works well to accelerate about as quickly as it can given the conditions. Then I drove the M5 and S6, and I swear their traction control is better. I guess Audi has Quattro, but somehow the M5 can compete despite being RWD and having a gasoline engine. Even in the video where the M5 tires are slipping for the first couple seconds, it does a reasonable job keeping pace with the MSP whose tires are sticking.

    As far as body roll goes on the cars, I didn't really feel it on any of the cars (I drove a Hyundai Genesis in my shopping, and this did have noticeable roll). MSP, M5, and S6 are all using air suspensions, right?

    As far as shifting goes, I can't believe how fast M5 and S6 can shift. It's a fraction of a second, and it's got to be some 5 times faster than the Infiniti M56. And yet even at a few hundred milliseconds, the delay is there and it annoys me. When you stomp the "gas" pedal on the MSP, it just goes. I imagine that was a big part of why for me, the MSP was simply more fun to drive.

    Because of that, I bought the MSP [or more specifically, agreed to buy one].

    But if I wanted a car that would get me the best track times, I would think the M5 would be a better choice over the MSP.
    I doubt chrisn is going to have to pay out on his dinner bet.

    Incidentally, I occasionally continued to post on the AudiWorld forums after telling them that I chose the Tesla. Most were quite gracious. A few are mad at USA policy that has provided Tesla some advantages. On the whole, while I was choosing between cars, I would say TMC and AudiWorld treated me about equally. Each had a couple of vocal members that thought I was a complete idiot for considering something else, and a bunch of people that wanted to provide some equanimous input.
    They certainly do. If anything, as a general rule having really high peak acceleration is a disadvantage compared to a car that has a wider power band, but lower peak. In fact, the difference compared to the MSP is so profound that the ICE vehicles require hugely complicated transmissions to accomodate their extremely narrow power band.

    The key metric is average torque delivered to the pavement across a range of speeds and times. MSP does very well despite having a much lower torque rating. The reason is, that the M5 spends relatively little time at its maximum torque value, while MSP is almost always at or near its maximum. If MSP is going to beat an M5 anywhere, it's going to be on a tight road course with multiple turns and short straightaways, because under those conditions an ICE vehicle will really struggle with keeping itself in the fat part of its powerband, while incurring a ton of mechanical delays that MSP just doesn't have.

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