Diesel vs. Hybrid

[smoothoperator]

I'm on my second Prius and will sell it only after the S has found a home in our garage. A friend chided me about buying "statement car" and another commented that the Prius looked like a cross between a science project and the wooden "pinewood derby" that Cub Scouts race. If the Prius is a statement about values, it is a whisper compared to the shout that the Model S will be. I had considered the plug-in Prius, but thought it might be too timid a statement for 2012. I hope that a lot of people will be doing a lot of shouting very soon.

I really do not understand why people choose a Prius over a Diesel....Diesel vehicles are way more fun to drive and they get MPG's that are close to a Prius. I guess Prius makes a "hollywood" statement where as a diesel has a more "blue-collared" stigma attached to it?

Before my daily driver became an electric, I daily drove diesel vehicles (from when I got my license up to 2010). I drove a friends Prius once and I think I would rather walk, take public transit, or bike than drive that vehicle; it is basically a soulless appliance.

(moved from the Toyota Plug-in Prius thread)

[jerry33]

I really do not understand why people choose a Prius over a Diesel....Diesel vehicles are way more fun to drive and they get MPG's that are close to a Prius.

I had a modern VW TDI "clean" diesel. Cost 22 cents per mile just for dealer maintenance over the 95,000 miles I kept it. Every fill was a smelly mess. You couldn't park it in the garage because it stank up the garage every time you started it. Engine blew up at 80,000 miles (replaced under warranty so it doesn't factor into the 22 cents per mile). 22:1 compression and light-weight do not belong in the same sentence. And then there's the increased lung cancer from diesel exhaust. Had to be towed three times because the battery kept shorting out. Basically never again. I was fooled once. Just check out the owner satisfaction ratings between the two.

As far as fun-to-drive goes my 2004 Prius is far better than the TDI ever was. The Prius actually accelerates at highway speeds while the TDI just sits there. Both the TDI and the Prius are the same off the line (see * below)

And for MPG. Sorry not even close. (Bear in mind that diesel fuel is 10% to 20% higher than the regular fuel that the Prius uses so you have to subtract that amount from the diesel mpg to get an equivalent number):

2004 Prius MPG from the logbook. (Complete years only):
2003-2004 -- 50.8 mpg 17,628 miles
2005 -- 52.6 mpg 14,688 miles
2006 -- 56.3 mpg 16,174 miles
2007 -- 57.3 mpg 18,384 miles
2008 -- 59.9 mpg 21,755 miles
2009 -- 61.4 mpg 16,177 miles
2010 -- 65.2 mpg 12,134 miles
2011 -- 66.9 mpg 11,272 miles

2012 numbers:
--- Trip to NE starts here
01/07/12____128603____481____56.6 (4.2)
-- 13 F here
01/12/12____129042____438____52.7 (4.5)
01/15/12____129420____378____50.3 (4.7)
01/20/12____129094____481____56.2 (4.2)
--- Trip to NE ends here
01/31/12____130503____600____69.8 (3.4)
02/23/12____131050____546____69.4 (3.4)
03/07/12____131679____629____72.2 (3.3)
03/23/12____132319____638____71.3 (3.3)
04/12/12____132987____668____74.0 (3.2)
05/02/12____133647____659____74.3 (3.2)
05/18/12____134272____624____73.4 (3.2)



Operating cost 12 cents per mile over 135,000 trouble-free miles for dealer maintenance, tires, and fuel combined.


* The Prius' computers limit the top speed to about 105 mpg. The Prius accelerates strongly up to that point.

About acceleration: There are a few things that fool people:

1. When reviewers get 0-60 times, they rev the engine and pop the clutch (or the automatic equivalent). The Prius won't let you do this kind of juvenilia, but no one (who has to pay the bills) drives like that anyway so a few seconds to the acceleration times have to be added or subtracted depending upon which way you're doing the math.

2. Because there is no shifting in the Prius, you don't get that gear change jerk, which some people equate with engine power.

3. Because the engine RPM is not tightly coupled to vehicle speed as it is in an old fashioned car, some people use the sound of the engine RPM to tell when to back off on the accelerator. If you do this in a Prius acceleration will slow down. The Prius won't let the engine over-revv so backing off just slows acceleration. Note that many folks do this unconsciously because it's the way you accelerate in other cars.

4. The Prius actually accelerates at highway speeds, unlike many non-sports cars.

[ManuVince]

You might have a been quite unlucky with your VW. I had 2 Audi TDI (A3 and A4), and the first had no problem at all and I sold it at 75000 Miles because I wanted a bigger car. The second one, the A4, had only minor electrical issues and it has reached 70000 miles and counting.
In average, I get 60 MPG out of the A4 and was getting 65 MPG out of the A3. So I don't think it is that far from the numbers you give.
And here in Europe Diesel is 30 Euro cent cheaper per liter than petrol.

I never drove a Prius, so won't comment on the fun factor.

[NuclearPowered]

I really do not understand why people choose a Prius over a Diesel....Diesel vehicles are way more fun to drive and they get MPG's that are close to a Prius. I guess Prius makes a "hollywood" statement where as a diesel has a more "blue-collared" stigma attached to it?

Before my daily driver became an electric, I daily drove diesel vehicles (from when I got my license up to 2010). I drove a friends Prius once and I think I would rather walk, take public transit, or bike than drive that vehicle; it is basically a soulless appliance.

In my work carpool, 2/4 days I drive an 2004 prius with 210,000 miles that I bought for $6900. It gets approximately 45 mpg round trip from speeds between 35 and 75 mph on a 62 mile round trip commute. My carpool buddy drives the other 2 days out of the week in a 2011 TDI wagon that gets 36-37 mpgdiesel and cost $25,000 on exact same route. These numbers are averaged over 8 months or so of driving, so any variability in weather, traffic, etc is accounted for.

MPG is not comparable. Drive a diesel in a "sporty" way and watch the mpg suffer even more...

I agree with Mark, I will not be buying anything other then a Prius unless it is full EV. Best car I have ever owned. If diesel was actually more cost efficient to operate, it would be more popular.

If the prius came with a diesel ICE...now that would be a great car.

[smoothoperator]

In my work carpool, 2/4 days I drive an 2004 prius with 210,000 miles that I bought for $6900. It gets approximately 45 mpg round trip from speeds between 35 and 75 mph on a 62 mile round trip commute. My carpool buddy drives the other 2 days out of the week in a 2011 TDI wagon that gets 36-37 mpgdiesel and cost $25,000 on exact same route. These numbers are averaged over 8 months or so of driving, so any variability in weather, traffic, etc is accounted for.

MPG is not comparable. Drive a diesel in a "sporty" way and watch the mpg suffer even more...

I agree with Mark, I will not be buying anything other then a Prius unless it is full EV. Best car I have ever owned. If diesel was actually more cost efficient to operate, it would be more popular.

If the prius came with a diesel ICE...now that would be a great car.

Not to get too far off topic but it is possible to run carbon neutral on a diesel, and have the fuel costs rival those of an electric car. This is not possible on a Prius (unless you drive a PiP and have <8 mile commute to work).

[drees]

Not to get too far off topic but it is possible to run carbon neutral on a diesel, and have the fuel costs rival those of an electric car. This is not possible on a Prius (unless you drive a PiP and have <8 mile commute to work).

Not on a "clean" diesel. Can't run more than 5% biodiesel in those. And you get 10% ethanol in every gas car.

If you're going to claim that running biodiesel is OK in a "clean" diesel - I'll go ahead and say that running E85 is OK in a Prius.

[smoothoperator]

Not on a "clean" diesel. Can't run more than 5% biodiesel in those. And you get 10% ethanol in every gas car.

If you're going to claim that running biodiesel is OK in a "clean" diesel - I'll go ahead and say that running E85 is OK in a Prius.

I was referring to SVO

[drees]

I was referring to SVO

My point still stands. You aren't going to run SVO or anything more than 5% BD in your modern clean diesel without voiding warranties - so a Prius slightly modified to run on E85 is the same thing.

Never mind that SVO @ $2.50 still costs more to fuel per mile than your typical EV and is a much bigger pain to fill up, though you do get long range between fill-ups.

[strider]

Not on a "clean" diesel. Can't run more than 5% biodiesel in those. And you get 10% ethanol in every gas car.

If you're going to claim that running biodiesel is OK in a "clean" diesel - I'll go ahead and say that running E85 is OK in a Prius.

We've been running B100 in our 2005 Jeep Liberty for 100k miles now with zero fuel-related problems. The B5 thing is just ignorance/lawyers. They would have to prove that the bio caused the problem in order to deny the warranty claim. We brought our Jeep into the dealer for warranty work (again, nothing fuel-related) with biodiesel stickers on it w/ no problems.

So if people have been running E85 in a Prius then I would say it's fine too. Don't have any experience w/ that though.

[smoothoperator]

My point still stands. You aren't going to run SVO or anything more than 5% BD in your modern clean diesel without voiding warranties - so a Prius slightly modified to run on E85 is the same thing.

Never mind that SVO @ $2.50 still costs more to fuel per mile than your typical EV and is a much bigger pain to fill up, though you do get long range between fill-ups.

You can store SVO/Filtered WVO in 55 gallon drums (what I used to do) and just fill up at home (quicker than charging). WVO cost me nothing. Filling E85 will actually diminish your fuel mileage and requires changes to the injectors of a Prius...I am not sure if that has changed with the current model Prius but the last gen Prius required an expensive injector change to use E85 (it is also much more expensive than WVO). I used to run B100 on my 2005 Mercedes and I never had a problem with the warranty (this was for 4+ years).