Where does the S fit in the world of luxury sedans?

It isn't a 'Luxury' sedan from what I see/hear
...I think premium is the term used

I expect jumping from a 02 LS430 to the S to be a 'downgrade' in some aspects (no tape player in the S haha) but the Epower will make up for any loss

djwang2000 said:

Our deposit is down and my wife is incredibly excited, but we're planning on doing some comparison shopping -- the problem is, what to compare to?

Ignoring the EV component and the performance issue (i.e. the 0-60 time) where does the S fit in? Those that have seen/sat in the betas -- where's the car fit in luxury-wise? If we're in the market for a $60,000 - $80,000 -ish luxury car (5-series, Audi A/S6 or A/S7, E-class, Panamera, Lexus GS (?ISF)) where does the S fit in with these? No doubt, we're willing to pay a premium for an EV (no need to justify it by prices at the pump, tax credits, etc.), but as Musk would put it, we're looking for a luxury car that happens to be electric (and not the other way around).

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Elon prefers to use the term "Premium sedan". Your list of cars above are right in the target range for comparison shopping. Mid-size premium sedans like the 5-series, Audi A6, Lexus ES/GS, Infiniti M, Mercedes E-class, Porsche Panamera, Volvo S60, Acura TL/RL, Jaguar XF, Hyundai Genesis, Cadillac CTS.

The performance version should compare nicely with whatever performance version is offered by the above brands as well.

I'd add the BMW 6-series and Audi A7, both of which have the coupe-like vision of the Model S. I think the Lexus ES, Acura TL, and Hyundai Genesis are a full notch below target, and the Panamera is a notch above.

Robert.Boston said:

I'd add the BMW 6-series and Audi A6, both of which have the coupe-like vision of the Model S. I think the Lexus ES, Acura TL, and Hyundai Genesis are a full notch below target, and the Panamera is a notch above.

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Likely true, but they are targeting the same markets as well, and buyers who are mainly considering cost as a factor are considering those brands, despite the trade-offs. The 2013 ES is a much nicer car than its predecessor so it has somewhat moved up the chain so to speak. The Genesis Tau V8 R-spec elevates the Genesis into BMW 550i territory, although not as athletic a performer. As a former owner of a TL (which I loathed) it demonstrates how Acura has continually missed the mark, but some people love the brand and it meets the size and interior fit/finish benchmarks of the Model S to some extent. The RL is likely a better competitor. I'd also add the Audi A7 to the list.

Check out the Genesis R-spec headlamps. Look familiar???

Some comparative numbers

Tesla S MB E320
Front head room: 39.8" 37.9".
Rear head room: 36.6" 38.2"
Front leg room: 42.0" 41.3"
Rear leg room: 36.7" 35.8"
Front shoulder room: 57.6" 57.8"
Rear shoulder room: 55.0" 56.9"

Storage, rear: 28.7 cu. ft. 15.9 cu.ft.
Storage, front: 8.1 cu ft. nada
Turning circle: 37 ft. 36.2 ft.
Width: 77.3in 73.0 in.
Height: 56.5in 57.9 in.
Length: 195.9in 191.7 in.
Front track: 65.4in 63.0 in.
Rear track: 66.9in 63.7 in.
Wheel base: 116.5in 113.2 in.
Curb weight: 4000lbs 3825 lbs.

My wife and I just sat in the beta in the Bellevue showroom last weekend. We usually drive luxury sedans and sport coupes. Currently havea Porsche Cayenne S and and Mercedes SL500. The inside of a Model S does not feel like one of those. It reminded me a lot of the Buicks we sometimes get when renting cars on vacation.

We are holding on to our reservation, but the kindest thing I can say about the interior is that we don't detest it.

Keep in mind that nobody has seen the final quality/fit/finish of the Model S interior.

mulder1231 said:

Keep in mind that nobody has seen the final quality/fit/finish of the Model S interior.

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I really hope Tesla pulls a rabbit out of the hat on this, but it's hard to believe Tesla is holding some momentous interior change hidden from the public. The comments have been pretty consistent that the interior is lackluster in comparison to the cars Tesla says is their competition. :frown:

People said the roadster had a crappy interior for a 100k$ car. I don't hear those complaints anymore.

ckessel said:

I really hope Tesla pulls a rabbit out of the hat on this, but it's hard to believe Tesla is holding some momentous interior change hidden from the public. The comments have been pretty consistent that the interior is lackluster in comparison to the cars Tesla says is their competition. :frown:

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Tesla Motors has positioned the Model S directly in the middle of its weight class on purpose and I think the Model S can only go higher in its offering to prospective buyers. The initial package is a good one but can be improved upon but in the hopes of maximizing the range TM had to pull back on everything that could go into the final version of the "S". Only time will tell what will be the final version of the Model S. I still will purchase.

I only sat in the back seat of the red S at the Factory event and I was in the middle. I thought it was really comfortable in the middle and very roomy. from that position I did like the interior. I didn't look too carefully at the trim edges around the ceiling, I was more focused on looking through the middle at the dash and the lace wood on the middle arm rest area and then trying to watch the speedo when we were going 0-70+ veerry comfortably!

The '02 LS430 (that I was gifted) in comparison was probably a $60K+new car 0-60 <6.5s and very quiet + rides smooth and handles decent. Seats are not as good as a nicer benz in adjustability and no bolsters but pretty comfy. Nav system is voice activated, rear seats heated, lots of soft leather and burl trim over most everything else but a few plastic parts and at 130k miles it runs great and looks pretty new still. The fit and finish is pretty nice and everything has held up perfectly for 10 years.

I think I will like the S better but it needs to last like a luxury car too

While I agree that the interior isn't up to the standards set by Audi/Jaguar/Porsche/etc., I suspect that Tesla has devoted its limited resources to ensuring that the mechanicals are flawless. Version 2.0 could see a marked improvement on the interior, especially if marketing determines that that element is holding back sales.

Zextraterrestrial said:

It isn't a 'Luxury' sedan from what I see/hear
...I think premium is the term used

I expect jumping from a 02 LS430 to the S to be a 'downgrade' in some aspects (no tape player in the S haha) but the Epower will make up for any loss

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I would really have to disagree here. When shopping for my wife's Audi Q5 I kept asking my self what makes a luxury car luxury. I mean heck you could get a ford with just about all the option's her Q5 has for thousands less. To me what made it luxury was they made it available first. The panoramic sun room is massive in that CUV and we both wouldn't buy another car with out one. The back up camera, fit and finish, ride, noise level, comfort, acceleration, they were all above average to me and that's what made it luxury was the total package that we felt we couldn't get from something else.

So the Tesla has a great electric propulsion system, cool touch screen center console hit or miss in my book (personally would have preferred conventional buttons for HVAC controls and sun roof) well appointed interior and lots of options that just aren't available in other cars like rear facing child seats, slacker radio, potentially great safety. That's what makes it a luxury car. Hopefully the interiors and fit and finish continue to improve because the Boston white Model S looked beat! Like really beat it seamed like everyone was pull ever section of carpeting that could get a finger on up and rubbing every button till the letting rubbed off. But the interior was average for a luxury class car. It's no Bentley but it's not meant to be either. I will get one because I drive 110+ miles a day and getting a luxury car simple cost's to much to justify driving that kind of mileage.

BTW Lexus is a premium car over Toyota my rich old boring uncle loves his and I am sure many grandfathers around the U.S. enjoy driving there's to the golf club too, but no way am I considering that luxury! For me you won't ketch me dead owning one any time soon.

Full disclosure Lexus did pay me $75 to test drive the GS, nice car but still no way I would even consider it! LOL

mnx said:

People said the roadster had a crappy interior for a 100k$ car. I don't hear those complaints anymore.

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haha. all 2,000 of them that is. Tesla needs to appeal to more than that if the Model S is going to be a success. Simply being a sedan at a lower price-point helps.

Robert.Boston said:

I suspect that Tesla has devoted its limited resources to ensuring that the mechanicals are flawless. Version 2.0 could see a marked improvement on the interior, especially if marketing determines that that element is holding back sales.

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I think this is key when thinking about the potential of the first home grown American car company to successfully launch a mass market car (15,000+/year) in many many years. Resources and materials are at a premium, so they need to focus on what matter most to the success of the car. If you double the price of the Volt, Leaf and Focus you are getting a value (with the Model S) when you consider the electric range, performance, and amenities compared to the perceived price descrepancy. So from an EV stand point you are getting a deal. From a luxury/premium standpoint you may not get the "fit and finish" of a luxury car, but you do get almost all the same amenities that matter to a luxury car owner plus the fact that it is an EV - unmatched technology, performance sedan, tech gadgets galore and the Premium brand recognition (or opportunity to educate) of Tesla.
I beleive Mercedes Benz is going to use some of Teslas Technology for their EVs, thats is going to be an expensive car and will not start in price in the upper 50s or 60s. I really think this car needs to be kept in persperpective for what it is, Elon was probably a little overzealous to say the Model S will the best car that happens to be an EV, but I dont think they are missing the mark by much. If all we are really talking abut is cup holders, "leather throughout" and a few beautifully finished amenities. The Model S is the (family size) game changing beginning of what I think we all hope is an electric car revolution. I am super excited to be a part of that, no matter what we actually classify it as.

djwang2000 said:

Some great answers -- thanks! The A7 is definitely on the list and may be a better comparison than the A6/S6.

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I believe the exterior dimensions of the Model S and A7 are all within 1" of each other for length, height, and width. The A7 is also a hatchback and it is closest direct comparison for the Model S out there. I test drove an A7 about a month after I rode in the beta Model S at the factory event in October. I would say the fit and finish of the A7 is a notch or 2 higher than the Model S, which is more comparable to the entry level A3 or A4. On the other hand, the electronics and controls in the 17" touchscreen of the Model S is way ahead of those in the A7. My guess is that 2 years down the line, the interior of the Model S will catch up to the competitors.