Europe: Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase? (Part 2)

[Kevin Sharpe]

I still think Tesla exactly knows what 3-phase charging in the EU means and how they need to implement it.

Their motor is 3-phase powered, so there is knowledge about this matter inside Tesla.

I've also heard from multiple sources that they are working on true 3-phase charging, so I still think we're good.

I hope your faith is rewarded... it's just hard to imagine how anyone would develop a proprietary connector that doesn't support 3 Phase if they have ambitions to sell cars outside of the US

[widodh]

I hope your faith is rewarded... it's just hard to imagine how anyone would develop a proprietary connector that doesn't support 3 Phase if they have ambitions to sell cars outside of the US

After sending the letter to Tesla and the announcement on the Geneva Motor Show I really can't imagine they think they can get "away" with just connecting one phase.

I never disclosed this, but I talked with Athlon Car Lease in the Netherlands. They have a reservation for 150 Model S. I also talked to the Icelandic guy who has a reservation for 100 Model S.

I informed both parties extensively about why they need 3-phase charging to get the Model S working.

Both never told me if they contacted Tesla about this, but I'm pretty sure that at least Athlon did. >24 hours charging times, that will never sell as a lease company.

During the Model X reveal a fellow Dutchman talked to the guy who has actually developing the 3-phase charging for the Model S.

Combining all this together I'm still convinced we'll get true 3-phase charging for the Model S in the EU.

[medved]

All deliveries now are USA only. The first EU cars should be delivered starting dec 2012, so there should be some time for Tesla to work out the 3-phase charging.

Yeah, but I don't like the idea of having region specific cars. If that's their goal, I might as well cancel my reservation. Most likely I will need my car in Europe too.

[dsm363]

Yeah, but I don't like the idea of having region specific cars. If that's their goal, I might as well cancel my reservation. Most likely I will need my car in Europe too.

All cars are region specific in a sense (different regulations in each region). You can still use and charge your US Model S in Europe, it would just be a much slower recharge without the 3 phase charging unless Tesla sets up a Supercharging network in Europe as well.

[ElSupreme]

Yeah, but I don't like the idea of having region specific cars. If that's their goal, I might as well cancel my reservation. Most likely I will need my car in Europe too.

There are regulations in Europe and the USA that are mutually exclusive. Headlight requirements being one. You CANNOT make a car that is legal to sell in both areas. They have to be region specific.

[Eberhard]

Yeah, but I don't like the idea of having region specific cars. If that's their goal, I might as well cancel my reservation. Most likely I will need my car in Europe too.

If Model S is able to charge at 3 Phases, it can also modified to charge from the same phase. But it does not work the other way round.

[medved]

If Model S is able to charge at 3 Phases, it can also modified to charge from the same phase. But it does not work the other way round.

Exactly. This doesn't have to be region specific. Just make it 3 phase and we will be all happy.

[stopcrazypp]

Yeah, but I don't like the idea of having region specific cars. If that's their goal, I might as well cancel my reservation. Most likely I will need my car in Europe too.

AFAIK almost every car is region specific. In very few instances will you find a car that is the same in both the US and in Europe (because of differing regulations, a US and a Canada spec car might be different too). The situation will be the same for the standard plugs in BEVs by large automakers (they will offer J1772 in the US and Mennekes in Europe, not something that will support both; this will be true of the DC "Combo" plug too).

If you are contemplating shipping your car to Europe and you need three-phase support, it is a good idea to wait for the European version. The chances of the US version supporting three phase is virtually nil (because very few people have a three phase connection in their home and there will be literally no public infrastructure that supports three phase charging). They would have to charge US customers extra for something that will be virtually useless for them. It's not a win-win situation.

[Johan]

So long time no post in this thread. Here in Europe we are jealously seeing US deliveries speeding up. Meanwhile, no news here on pricing, deliveries or on the all-important details of the 3-phase support. I've been thinking a bit about the actual connector-charge port. There are some options here that I think (hope) we can rule out: 1) A separate, second, charge port somewhere else on the car (other side?) 2) Same connector to the car but able to connect to a 3-phase plug however only utilizing one leg (phase) - that would not be 3-phase support so hopefully we can rule that one out as well.

Also, I am a big fan of Tesla's "one connector fits all" approach - I.e. AC and DC charging via the same plug. Now, as we are all aware of the current plug has only two large dimension connectors together with the smaller signaling connectors (see linaser's pictures above in this thread). Now, to be able to still use the plug for supercharging DC at 90 kW (120kW in the future?) I assume we must keep the dimension of the two big connectors. To have true 3-phase support we need to add two more large connectors (for leg 2 and leg 3 of the system). Now these don't have to be as big as the connectors that are already in place since the leg 2/leg 3 connector will most likely maximally handle 10kW of AC power (each). So the question is: Is it possible to fit these two additional connectors in the already slender plug? Well, electrically speaking, in theory, the plug could be as small as the cross section of the cable, but in reality no contact surface is going to be 100% efficient so because of that, and for safety reasons, you need quite a bigger contact surface than wire cross section area.

Now, what interests me with regards to the design of the connector is how "two-dimensional" it is. By this I mean that it's just a 90 degree cross-section and the contact surfaces are completely round and flat. In no way does it take advantage of depth = the third dimension = z axis. If you would just cut the connector (and of course the "female" connector on the other end accordingly) at say a 45 degree angle you would have quite some more cross sectional area. If the contact surfaces had an added depth, maybe in the form of flat pins (like the ones on a regular 110V US plug) you could have a lot more contact surface without increasing the cross sectional area. Also, you could let the connectors run in close proximity (just like the wires do in the cable), and instead of separating them so much in the x and y plane, you could separate them in the z plane - i.e. one could be "shallow" and one could be "deep" in the charge port. This would of course add some depth to the whole device, but I would think that would be less of a problem than increasing the cross sectional area of the "hole" in the car and also the cross sectional area of the plug it self?

Am I doing some kind of fundamental error with these assumptions?

[dpeilow]

connector will most likely maximally handle 10kW of AC power (each).

It will need to be a minimum of 11kW, preferably 22kW and best would be 43kW.