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Europe: Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase? (Part 2)

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widodh

Model S 100D and Y LR
Moderator
Jan 23, 2011
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Venlo, NL
The original topic can be found here: Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase ?

Since the original topic became a bit large, I'd thought it would be best to open a new topic.

Yes, the Model S in Europe will support 3-phase charging!

It was quite a big discussion here on the forum:
* Should the Model S support 3-phase charging?
* Is 3-phase better then 1-phase?
* How should the Model S support 3-phase?

In fall 2011 a letter was sent to Tesla to convince them to support 3-phase charging for the Model S: Endorse my letter to Tesla for supporting 3-phase charging for the Model S

At the Geneva Motor Show 2012 it was confirmed by Elon Musk, the Model S in Europe will support 3-phase charging: Twitter

This was also confirmed by George Blankenship on this forum: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...3-phase/page14?p=120317&viewfull=1#post120317

Details about the 3-phase implementation have not been made public yet by Tesla. If it will be 3x16A (11kW), 3x32A (22kW) or 3x63A (43kW) is still to be reveiled.

Please, do continue the discussion here :)
 
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From what I've heard Tesla will install a third 10kW charger in the Model S and connect each charger to a seperate phase. This way they are using the same chargers globally, making it easier for spare parts.

This will give the European Model S the possibility to charge with 30kW, at 230V that is 3x40A.

It could be that they will limit this to 3x32A (22kW) with software due to heat build up inside the car, that is something we don't know yet.

I personally still think we'll get 3x32A and 3x63A would be something for the Model S 2.0.

I haven't heard anything about the plug design, I'm only assuming they will change their current design for Europe and add two pins.
 
I hope they will make it possible to charge at 3x40A

I wonder if a 3x63A EVSE can be dialed down to 3x40A by the connectionsignal
Like dpeilow said:

The EVSE has a maximum of 3x63A, but the car is only capable to charge at 3x40A, so it will only draw 3x40A.

max current EVSE >= max current car

If the EVSE is capable if 3x32A and the car can do 3x40A, then the car will draw only 3x32A, since the EVSE dictates how much can be drawn.
 
From what I've heard Tesla will install a third 10kW charger in the Model S and connect each charger to a seperate phase. This way they are using the same chargers globally, making it easier for spare parts.

This will give the European Model S the possibility to charge with 30kW, at 230V that is 3x40A.

Hopefully they will support delta (230V with no Neutral) three-phase in addition to star/wye (400V with Neutral) three-phase. In Norway we have mostly 230V three-phase. Supporting both should be easy, just autodetect voltage between phases and presense of a Neutral line and connect the chargers accordingly (phase-phase instead of phase-neutral).

30kW @230V three-phase is 3x75A, 22kW is 3x55A. 3x16A will supply 6.4kW and 3x32A 12.7kW.
 
Hopefully they will support delta (230V with no Neutral) three-phase in addition to star/wye (400V with Neutral) three-phase. In Norway we have mostly 230V three-phase. Supporting both should be easy, just autodetect voltage between phases and presense of a Neutral line and connect the chargers accordingly (phase-phase instead of phase-neutral).

30kW @230V three-phase is 3x75A, 22kW is 3x55A. 3x16A will supply 6.4kW and 3x32A 12.7kW.
My knowledge doesn't go that far.

But, if you have 3 seperate single-phase chargers, can you place those in a delta configuration without utilizing the neutral?

If so, I don't see a problem, since the chargers could handle 200 - 400V thus supporting all European countries.

P.S.: Upgrade your network! 230V is so 1980! 400V is the future ;)
 
My knowledge doesn't go that far.

But, if you have 3 seperate single-phase chargers, can you place those in a delta configuration without utilizing the neutral?

Yes. The device can't even know whether it's connected to two phases or phase and neutral - all it sees is 230 V AC, unless it compares them to ground.

If so, I don't see a problem, since the chargers could handle 200 - 400V thus supporting all European countries.

Yes, but they must still be delta connected, instead of wye. This would have to happen automatically. It should not cost a lot, but they would have to actually do it.

jkirkebo: Come to think of it - would not a wye connection work, only at a lower voltage/higher amps per phase, and at the same total power? The chargers can take down to 110 V, so they should be able to run just fine on 132 V (which is the phase-to-neutral voltage of 230 V 3P). It also depends on the max current rating of the chargers at the lower voltage.

P.S.: Upgrade your network! 230V is so 1980! 400V is the future ;)

No, its soo 1920... :p

We are, but it's very much easier said than done, I'm afraid... I'm actually surprised the conversion to 400 V is progressing as quickly as it is. In my case, to get 400 V, the utility would have to install a new transformer which supplies about 20-25 homes, pull new cables (hopefully there are tubes - otherwise they would have to dig up the whole area to lay new five-wire connections), and replace every fuse panel and meter. Not going to happen.

But commercial buildings do get upgraded, and wherever they develop a new area large enough for a separate transformer, 400 V is used.
 
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I haven't heard anything about the plug design, I'm only assuming they will change their current design for Europe and add two pins.

At the anual shareholder meeting, Elon talked a few minutes about the connector that Tesla Motors developed. He was very enthusiastic about their development and I think, that he has some hope, that the Tesla connector will be adopted by the rest of the industry at some point, because it is so much better.

Now I ask my self, if Tesla Motors will risk this "new standard" by adding a second connector type for the European market. I think it would be much more valuable to Tesla Motors, if they would have developed a connector, that could be used globally.

So my question is: Do you think, that there is no way, they could reuse the current connector design for 3-phase charging?

If not, do you have any guesses, how the European connector could look like and if it could be "downwards compatible" to the existing connect0r?

And do you think, that Tesla Motors will come up with a "world connector" at some point, replacing the current U.S. connector?
 
So my question is: Do you think, that there is no way, they could reuse the current connector design for 3-phase charging?
Impossible, it's lacking the physical pins to connect L2 and L3.

If not, do you have any guesses, how the European connector could look like and if it could be "downwards compatible" to the existing connect0r?
Re-design their current connector and add two more pins. The connector will become slightly bigger, but it will be able to connect L2 and L3.

And do you think, that Tesla Motors will come up with a "world connector" at some point, replacing the current U.S. connector?
Why not? If they have a 3-phase connector it can also be used for 1-phase connections, no problem.
 
Impossible, it's lacking the physical pins to connect L2 and L3.

Ok, this may be completely stupid, but hear me out:

Connector.jpg


What I know is, that to handle 32A the minimal conductor cross-section is 6 square milimeters.

What I don't know how big the surface of a connector has to be, to support the same current safely.

Don't you think, the existing pins could physicality handle the necessary currents?

If so, it would only be a matter of intelligent communications between the charger and the car to ensure, that the electronic switchboard connects the right things to each other.

Do you think I'm crazy? :)
 
Ok, this may be completely stupid, but hear me out:

Don't you think, the existing pins could physicality handle the necessary currents?

If so, it would only be a matter of intelligent communications between the charger and the car to ensure, that the electronic switchboard connects the right things to each other.

Do you think I'm crazy? :)
You're crazy! ;)

If the Model S would want to work with any existing EVSE infra it will need a pilot and proximity connector and with your idea that won't work.
 
Maybe even more stupid, but it came to me when I thought about the norweginans missing their neutral conductor:

Connector2.jpg


The Model S could charge from the three phases without any ground or neutral connector, when you connect each of the three chargers between two phases each.
 
If the Model S would want to work with any existing EVSE infra it will need a pilot and proximity connector and with your idea that won't work.

Yes, but the external charger box, could receive the pilot information and convert the data to a proprietary signal, which then is modulated onto one of the phases - like powerline ethernet...

Ok, I should stop now these crazy considerations and hope, that TM will indeed design a new European connector, that will eventually be adopted as "world connector".
 
Take a look at the IEC Type 2 connector.... that's the perfect starting point for any future connector standard.
The Type 2 connector isn't even that much larger then the Tesla connector.

Problem is: None of the Tesla people seem to have ever touched a Type 2 connector..

Yes, but the external charger box, could receive the pilot information and convert the data to a proprietary signal, which then is modulated onto one of the phases - like powerline ethernet...

Ok, I should stop now these crazy considerations and hope, that TM will indeed design a new European connector, that will eventually be adopted as "world connector".
Could be possible, but that would mean you need an external box, which you don't want.

You want a direct cable from the EVSE into your car without any signal boxes lying around.