JB Straubel in Tokyo

[dsm363]

I wish there were Tesla HPCs all around Texas (even if they were a few miles off of the highway). Charging at 70A would help make travel in the 40 kWh Model S possible but not as good as the Supercharger of course. I wonder if they'll convert those to Model S HPCs and provide some sort of adapter for the Roadster (if that is possible).

[NigelM]

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Agreed, if you include FL also. Although, I still suspect that a standard mode charge on the 40kWh will give ~115 miles (maybe 120?) which would mean too many stops to do a serious road trip.

(Mods, sorry for going OT. )

[Eberhard]

If Model S would come with a third charger, the 40kW could charge easily at any Supercharger on a 3-phase AC-socket with 30kW (3x40A 277V/480V) This would fill up the 40kW pack from 10% to 80% SOC within one hour.

[dpeilow]

^ or it could just tell the supercharger "give me 30kW".

[benji4]

I'm guessing that's not the example you're looking for, as Half Moon Bay is further from LA than Sacramento is from LA.

That's just the irony of some trip planning you currently have to do in order to current HPC network in Japan. Using the US example again, if there were 3 charging stations on highway 1 between Half Moon Bay and Los Angeles, but none within your car's range on I-5, you might actually have to take the coastal route to make the trip. It's a much nicer route of course but in most cases it would better to avoid it if you could. What TEG said about Roadster drivers is correct however -- they don't mind the 20 mile detour. I certainly don't mind it if I have time as I love driving. But I think you are missing the main part of the point I was trying to make which I'll explain further here.

In Japan, all major highways are toll roads, and they are extremely expensive compared to anything you've maybe seen in the US. $50-60 perhaps to drive 300 miles. The further you go, however, the better your cost performance. Just getting on the damn thing for a 5 mile trip costs you perhaps $12.

The highway network is extensive linking pretty much all major cities, and compared to non-toll roads, travel on the highways is many, many times faster. I would say that on the highways you can easily average 120km/hr (go faster than that and automated speed traps snap your picture and you get a ticket in the mail) for long trips, but on non-toll roads you can maybe average 20km/hr combined with the fact they are generally not built in a straight path because of the mountainous terain that encompasses most of the country. Lots of twisty mountain roads here! And lots and lots of traffic lights that are not timed well. In Japan on non-toll roads you spend more time waiting at traffic lights than you do driving. This is not an exageration. The highways on the other hand are straight as an arrow, flat and level, and burrow straight through mountains with tunnels as long as 20 miles if a mountain happens to get in the way. Simply put, you want to be travelling on these roads in most cases if your really need to get anywhere.

The problem with charging an electric car anywhere other than the service areas along these roads is that you need to get off the highway, drive to the charging station, and then re-enter the highway though another toll gate. The toll gates are also very spread out, so you may need to drive even further to get back on then when you got off. And when you do get back on, they hit you with a brand new toll which probably is going to drive your total fee up by 40 or 50% since you have now down 2 trips on the toll road rather than 1 if you had been able to charge at a highway service area which if right on the highway. You never have to exit, you don't have to pay a 2nd toll, and you don't have to wait in line to get back on the highway.

Now, I'll write a bit about the highway service areas that feature CHAdeMO charge points. These place are great -- they feature all sorts of restaurants, shopping, parks, and are generally a great place to stop at during your drive. They are the perfect place to charge, in fact there couldn't be a better place to stop really. Wouldn't it be nice if they let Tesla put some superchargers or HPCs there too? It's highly unlikely, probably impossible that it will ever happen. Japan is very standards based society, and if the CHAdeMO is the standard, that's what's going up (well, already is up I should say) at highway service areas all over the country. They simply won't put in a charge point that is not capable of charging Japanese-made cars, case closed.

So if Tesla does not support CHAdeMO in any form, they are going to sell a lot less cars in this market. I shouldn't say they are going to fail, obviously nobody knows that. So I retract that statement, they may still achieve some level of success with a certain segment of the market. The long range achievable by Tesla cars does as you say mitigate a lot of the consequences of not having a convenient charging network in place. But I will guarantee you 100% that they will sell way, way less cars here that if they had decided to support CHAdeMO.

Let me know if this makes better sense now, I hope I've done a better job of explaining it!

[benji4]

Will the Japanese government simply not allow any other chargers for political reasons or do you think there is something Tesla could do to make the playing field level?

I think the only thing they can do is to support CHAdeMO. It's the standard here, and Japan simply won't allow anything else on public or semi-public space (the highway system was privatized a few years back but is basically a government-run industry). There are a number of reasons for this, some political no doubt, but some that simply reflect the Japanese way of thinking about things. The government would say, for example that would be unfair to a LEAF driver, etc. to not be able to use Tesla supercharger or HPC since there are so many more LEAF drivers than Model S drivers.

Interesting question about CHAdeMO support for the RAV-4. If Toyota wants to sell lots of them, then it will surely support CHAdeMO espcially considering that Toyota is part of the CHAdeMO consortium. With its shorter range, it really would be crippled here without CHAdeMO support, much more of course than the Model S. But if the RAV-4 is more of a symbol or experiment for Toyota than a product that was meant to be mass-produced, you may very well see it only supporting Tesla's own charging solutions. I've often wondered which way they are going to go on this and I'm dying to find out!

[TEG]

Let me know if this makes better sense now, I hope I've done a better job of explaining it!

I think I got it the first time, but now you made it crystal clear.

Thanks.


In California your highway 1 example is really highway 101, as that is/was the Rabobank trail of HPCs. (There really isn't much charging on highway 1 as far as I know. You would probably have to go from Santa Cruz all the way to San Luis Obispo.)
Many HPCs have been converted to J1772 now, so a Roadster better carry and adapter, and a LEAF could try to use them, but make it a multi-day trip, since CHAdeMO is non existent so far.

[benji4]

I think I got it the first time, but now you made it crystal clear.

I know you got it the first time, but somebody else didn't quite seem to understand my point so I thought it might be good to go into a bit more detail.

In California your highway 1 example is really highway 101, as that is/was the Rabobank trail of HPCs. (There really isn't much charging on highway 1 as far as I know. You would probably have to go from Santa Cruz all the way to San Luis Obispo.)
Many HPCs have been converted to J1772 now, so a Roadster better carry and adapter, and a LEAF could try to use them, but make it a multi-day trip, since CHAdeMO is non existent so far.

Yes, I was really giving a more of a hypothetical example -- "suppose" that all the Tesla chargers were on highway 1 or some other scenic but incovenient route rather than on I-5 somewhere. Next, imagine that you had CHAdeMOs spaced out every 20 miles all the way down I-5, each one right on the highway surround by shops, restaurants, parks, etc. You'd probably much rather drive your LEAF right down I-5 to LA, stopping for 30 minute breaks every 100 miles and charging back up. Your case is a great example of course since you actually drive a LEAF! I'm starting to see them all over the place now here and I bet they are doing lots of CHAdeMO charging

[smorgasbord]

Let me know if this makes better sense now, I hope I've done a better job of explaining it!

Thanks, I did get your earlier explanation but I nevertheless remain unconvinced. What I think you're missing is my point that the hassle and cost of one off-highway quick-charge stop is still better than the hours of extra time and increased battery life deterioration of five on-highway quick-charge stops. And that's what you need for 500 mile trips.

The whole argument that not supporting CHAdeMO will significantly hurt Tesla with respect to its competition is doubtful in my view. Here in the US, where we probably drive more and further than anywhere else, we have no quick-charge locations and yet Tesla's Model S and X reservations are very strong. So, while there's a desire to have both, not having both doesn't make a short range EV with CHAdeMO better than a long range EV without it.

[TEG]

By the way, the LEAF email lists are buzzing about upcoming CHAdeMO (finally) in SF bay area.
Along with others, it seems the city of Palo Alto has decided to install 2 public L3s...
Maybe not next month, but I think within a year we will start to see CHAdeMO around here.
So, it won't be just an "in Japan" thing, but also right in their "backyard."

Tesla has their own "solution" in mind, so they would probably rather people were willing to wait for their supercharger networks, but meanwhile people will keep asking about 3-phase and CHAdeMO.