Do you know that you must keep your battery charged?

[daniel]

The car was not on. In fact the first day they accidentally left it on, and many hours later it decided to start the engine! Indoors! Sitting on a carpet! After that they made sure it was turned off, and plugged it in. But the hood and doors were kept open pretty much a whole week, and the 12V battery went dead. Once the car was boosted we could drive it out using the traction battery. Kinda strange that it had all this juice in the pack, but we had to get it boosted.

As richkae points out, this happens to Priuses. The car can start and run entirely on electricity for a short while, if you have the "EV" button installed. But the 12-v. battery is necessary to boot the computer, which brings the traction battery on line. Otherwise the traction battery is isolated with a switch. Having the traction battery isolated is a safety measure. But it means you cannot boot the car if the 12-v. battery is dead.

As for earlier comments regarding Mossad, I am under the impression that Israel is very supportive of electrification of personal transportation. I'm guessing Mossad is probably not behind any efforts to hurt Tesla. Which means that the anti-Tesla blogger is probably not Mossad. Besides, Mossad, for all its nasty habits, probably would not hire someone stupid enough to be unaware that you have to plug in an electric car. I'll bet agents of Mossad take better care of their cars than that.

[vfx]

http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2012...ew-technology/

Publisher answers DSM's comment:

Paul A. Eisenstein

says:

Hi, DSM,
The flip side is Tesla contending that buyers of conventional vehicles should already know that attention to the details in the manual are critical — pointing to instructions regarding regular oil changes. Barring someone completely letting the oil run out, ie through a leak or bad rings, I have yet to hear of a gas engine being “bricked” because the oil wasn’t changed at, say, 6,000 miles. Other than something catastrophic, complete failure just is not something buyers have been familiar with and despite what Tesla has done with its warnings they arguably do NOT go far enough to truly make it clear that the problem is as potentially fatal as things have proved to a handful of owners. It is a completely different mindset and one that probably requires even more dire warning than Tesla currently issues.I cannot speak to what happened in the dealer showroom but I would suggest that this is a critical issue that dealers should repeat on several occasions, especially during the hand-off after a sale.I happen to agree that Tesla has complicated matters by using virtually no pad at the low end of battery range. When the battery says “0″, that’s pretty much it. The folks at Nissan (and GM and Mitsubishi and Toyota) will tell you that they recognize the likelihood that consumers WON’T fully recognize the potential problem — which is one of several reasons why they opted for larger battery packs for a given range than Tesla. On the Volt, for example, I believe they’re currently using just 10 of the 16 kWh. Leaf isn’t accessing much more of its 24 kWh. Tesla seems to have taken the strategy of maximizing stated range and hoping that buyers will be more careful in battery maintenance. This strategy is in question. The fact is that should a Volt or Leaf owner hit zero, they’ll actually have a lower likelihood of bricking because of the pad.Meanwhile, I can think of numerous situations where a person might not have the option to immediately recharge, especially with so few public chargers available. I think very few people understand the SOC drop-off dilemma. I can’t recall that ever coming up in conversation, including serious discussions I have had with Elon Musk himself, unless I initiated the topic.What concerns me most is that Musk and Co. have chosen to aggressively resist the sort of customer-oriented strategy that would have prevented this from becoming an issue in the first place. I recall how both Saturn and Lexus handled technical issues in their early years…and I can personally attest to how some other makers have handled other matters that they might have dumped onto the consumer. Considering this is supposedly a limited issue that has affected only a handful of owners, a wise company would have made a lemon into lemonade by working with Drucker (and the others reported to have bricked Teslas). In the scheme of things the cost would’ve been moderate for the company, the good will massive. It could also have been turned into a good learning experience AND Tesla could have clearly stated something ala, “We recognize that in the early days, even tech-savvy early adopters might be on a learning curve, so we chose to replace the battery and plan to use this to reinforce to buyers the potential issues — and the relatively easy solution. We also want to stress that it will not be Tesla policy, going forward, to replace every bricked battery.”Wow, they’d look like heroes, they’d get the message out and they’d make it clear they were not going to just stand behind people endlessly for avoidable risks.Sadly, in recent weeks I have had a number of conversations with Tesla owners and others following them (emphasis: including enthusiasts) and the general consensus is that this is a company that does not get customer service. Ask about how they are addressing the used Tesla issue, BTW. That’s informative.Should buyers be well aware of the bricking issue, absolutely, but it does require a learning curve and one more serious than with burn-in on a plasma TV. (Which I experienced simply having a family emergency that required me to run out for a few hours with the set tuned to CNN. At least in that case I was able to initiate a repair. The TV didn’t fail catastrophically.)As to Drucker and DeGusta, yes, I — as was Denise — am well aware of their relationship. It would have been appropriate for DeGusta to reveal that relationship. The facts are still the facts, however, and in the end, the issues center, as much as anything, around Tesla’s battery strategy and their customer service policies — while also raising questions about owner responsibility.Looking forward, I find it worrisome that this can happen and think that if Tesla maintains the limited battery pad strategy when its vehicles go mainstream the bricking issue will become widespread. Be honest: do you think blaming the consumer — even if that’s accurate — will work to Tesla’s favor once Model S is out there? Hardly. Tesla owners clearly need to learn from this. So does Tesla. But the attitude I have seen from the maker suggests they may not be interested.Paul A. Eisenstein
Publisher, TheDetroitBureau.com

[dsm363]

Thanks vfx: I replied:

Hi Paul,
I have had nothing but positive experiences with Tesla and all of the other owners I know have as well. That doesn’t mean of course that there haven’t been people unhappy with Tesla’s service.

I don’t think a gas engine would be ruined of course not changing the oil at 6,000 or even 20,000 miles but there are people who have no clue about car maintenance who might drive years without ever changing the oil. I’d imagine BMW or Mercedes would say ‘you bought the car three years ago and never came in for service. I’m sorry you ruined your engine but that’s $15,000 please’

I think Max Drucker kind of painted Tesla into a corner by first basically threatening them in his letter if they didn’t replace his battery for free then following through with that threat by having his friend write that blog post and unleashing all of this bad PR. If Tesla then replaced his battery, they could be liable for every single claim regardless of customer responsibility in the future. How would you suggest Tesla draw the line on owner responsibility for their battery pack? He parked his car at 25% and left for 8 weeks. If I parked my car at 15% and left for 6 weeks with the car unplugged, would I also be covered? Tesla had clear guidelines in the manual and on the agreement and decided to stick to it right or wrong I guess.

I agree that it might have been nice if they had worked it out. I think Max Drucker’s attitude and anger came across in his letter and didn’t help lead to a workable solution. He also didn’t take any personal responsibly in the letter or provide a counter proposal from what I can tell at least. I think you’ll find very few cases, if any others, like this with Tesla. They have gone out of their way to help owners even replacing an entire frame with one month left under warranty (Tesla Service saw the crack and brought it to the owner’s attention. The owner didn’t even know about it). They could have easily looked it over until his warranty was out.

I think bringing up Drucker and DeGusta’s relationship in the article might have been a good idea since that could provide motive the DeGusta’s blog even though facts are facts. He never provides proof of the other 4 ‘bricked’ Roadsters but obviously knows the details of his friend’s Roadster.

The Roadster does give owners access to much more of the battery pack than more recently released EVs and the Volt. This allows for the better range but also means the owner must be more careful. Tesla is taking the slightly more conservative approach with the Model S and it looks like they stop at 5% SOC. From their blog post, it appears the owner can even override that last 5% but I’d imagine they’d have to click on some agreement on the screen stating that they understand they can ruin the battery pack if they go too much further without plugging in.

I think Tesla will be even more clear and straightforward with their new battery agreement and wording in the manual. I’m sure they’ll now make it abundantly clear when you buy the car and when they deliver it that you must not let the SOC reach 0% and stay there or you can destroy the battery pack and that it is not covered under warranty in those cases costing the owner potentially tens of thousands of dollars.

I agree that Tesla may have been caught a little off guard by all of this but this could actually benefit them from them knowing they have to be more clear in their wording and communication. Every other Roadster owner I’ve every talked to knows what Drucker did was nuts so that’s a start. Moving on to the general public with the Model S is different. As Tesla said in their blog post
“Model S and Model X will have batteries that can sit unplugged for over a year when parked with only a 50 percent charge. And when that year is up, all you need to do is plug it in.”

That should take care of 99.9% of owners. There will always be people who find a way around even this level of safety. I’m sure Tesla will do their best and take it on a case by case basis. EVs can’t yet be abused to the level of gas engines (in terms of lack of maintenance of the battery (in the EV) versus the engine (in the ICE) but that’s a matter of time. That doesn’t mean that there is much to worry about with the Model S or that it won’t be an excellent car for Tesla. Thanks.

[Norbert]

http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2012...ew-technology/

Publisher answers DSM's comment:

Paul A. Eisenstein

says:

Hi, DSM,
The flip side is Tesla contending that buyers of conventional vehicles should already know that attention to the details in the manual are critical — pointing to instructions regarding regular oil changes. Barring someone completely letting the oil run out, ie through a leak or bad rings, I have yet to hear of a gas engine being “bricked” because the oil wasn’t changed at, say, 6,000 miles. Other than something catastrophic, complete failure just is not something buyers have been familiar with and [....]

Paul A. Eisenstein
Publisher, TheDetroitBureau.com

That's a strange way of describing the possibility that oil runs out. In addition to oil changes, ICE owners are required to keep an eye on the oil level with that stick having two markers, nowadays there are often extra warning lights for low oil level, but (at least on some cars) those are additionally and one has to keep using the stick regularly. And what about tire pressure? Coolant level? Brake pads? Driving to the side when you see smoke coming out from under the hood? Don't open the hood, is my understanding. Are you sure everyone knows that?

[dsm363]

Yeah. They seem to find great fault with the oil analogy. He's right that you can't ruin the engine but simply not changing the oil immediately at 6,000 or 10,000 miles like the manual says. The oil will just get dirtier and dirtier and unless there is a leak, the engine will likely still work. Point being there is a point, even with enough oil, that you'll ruin the engine. I don't know how many miles that normally is though. Maybe someone here with more technical knowledge knows that.

[VolkerP]

... use case that hadn't been expected by the [...] engineers.

If I had a dime for every time someone stated that...

[Doug_G]

If I had a dime for every time someone stated that...

Hey, be nice to the poor engineers. (I'm one of them.)

"Nothing can be made foolproof... fools are too ingenious."

[stopcrazypp]

Yeah. They seem to find great fault with the oil analogy. He's right that you can't ruin the engine but simply not changing the oil immediately at 6,000 or 10,000 miles like the manual says. The oil will just get dirtier and dirtier and unless there is a leak, the engine will likely still work. Point being there is a point, even with enough oil, that you'll ruin the engine. I don't know how many miles that normally is though. Maybe someone here with more technical knowledge knows that.

I think oil changes are a bad analogy. A timing belt/chain is probably a better one. If it snaps it can lead to a lot of damage.

[cinergi]

My sister 'bricked' her first car's engine by not keeping an eye on the oil level. The engine seized. I don't remember the repair costs but that's an expensive mistake -- and not under warranty.

[vfx]

My sister 'bricked' her first car's engine by not keeping an eye on the oil level. The engine seized. I don't remember the repair costs but that's an expensive mistake -- and not under warranty.

Why does there have to be a leak to run out of oil? It burns up too.