ETCgreen anti-EV FUD

[drees]

I have served as an Analyst and Engineer for 30 years for the DoD, DoE, various universities and 4 Fortune 100 Corps. This discussion is pointless as your knowledge and perspective of technologies and economics are seriously skewed.

As a self-declared "expert" you still get many basics wrong.

When suggesting EV's as a solution, you need to include the power source and if you are including solar, then you need to include the materials necessary to build that solar - rare earths.

Solar PV does not use any rare earths at all. Perhaps a minimal amount in the inverter (as typical with most electronics), but there's probably more rare earths in your TV. No rare earths go into the PV panel itself, it's nearly all silicon, glass and a bit of copper. Never mind that most "rare" earths are not all that rare.

The technical specifications of batteries you are quoting are based on new rather than the average over the projected life cycle. Please become more familiar with your subject matter.

Even old automotive grade lithium batteries have low self discharge. I don't know why you continue to think this is an issue.

Vehicles need to operate for at least 300,000 miles to be considered Green due to manufacturing and recycling energy/materials. Have you run the cost model for a Tesla for 300,000 miles? We have.

Manufacturing is a very small part of your average car's lifetime's emissions. Now, I would not be surprised if a Tesla's manufacturing costs are much higher than typical, but we are discussing EVs in general, not the current crop of Tesla's.

You are quoting utility numbers that are commonly published on EV supporting websites. You may want to research the real numbers so you have a better perspective of true costs and capacities.

The numbers quoted are DOE numbers. If you have better references, please supply them.

Even the Leaf's $41K price is out of the range of the vast majority of U.S. consumers - economics are the principal motivation for selection.

The LEAF starts at $35k, not $41k. The Mitsubishi iMiEV is even less. And the price of EVs is projected to come down as production ramps up. 2013 will likely see a drop in the price of the Nissan LEAF as plants in Tennessee and the UK start up.

Please be respectful in your arguments - the goal is to help people understand their options in terms they understand.

Practice what you preach?

Leaf and Tesla use NO rare-earth metals.

LEAF has rare earth magnets in it's AC motor.

[qwk]

So you never answered the most important question. What vehicle can you use pure biodiesel in, and where can you buy it?

I'll help you out since you seem to avoid my questions. The answer is NONE, and NOWHERE.

[drees]

So you never answered the most important question. What vehicle can you use pure biodiesel in, and where can you buy it?

Never mind figuring out where one is going to find enough arable land to farm enough plants for biofuels...

[dsm363]

Also, as was pointed out rare earth metals aren't rare, just currently mined mostly in China due to cost.
You're not trying to educate people, you obviously are trying to serve your client's or company's best interests.

[dsm363]

So you never answered the most important question. What vehicle can you use pure biodiesel in, and where can you buy it?

I'll help you out since you seem to avoid my questions. The answer is NONE, and NOWHERE.

Exactly. Biofuels serve a purpose probably in planes and maybe trucking someday but it doesn't have to be a 'only my technology works and yours is crap' approach. EVs serve a valuable purpose and alternative to many people and cost will come down much as mobile phones and other technologies have.

[qwk]

Never mind figuring out where one is going to find enough arable land to farm enough plants for biofuels...

Even B20 grows algae in it so fast it's not even funny. Back when it was first introduced, I cleaned(and wasted) hundreds of gallons of the stuff. I can't even imagine B100, if it was even available.

This guy only describes the positives, which are very few. If he listed all of the negatives, He would make himself sound looney for advocating it.

[dpeilow]

It should also be pointed out that later this year Renault will have a highway-capable EV with an entry price around £14k ($22k).

[Eberhard]

few years ago, all diesel cars from volkswagen/audi were ready to run on pure biodiesel (not pure rape oil or other cold pressed veg. oil). But when the oil-industrie fears to loose market share to the farmer, the EU put pressure to tax bio-diesel (and veg. oil) higher. Today biodiesel is priced higher then diesel which has up to 7% biodiesel added (to the welfare of the oil industry) (now they can dictate the price for biodiesel)

[vfx]

..
Here are the highlights to help you form a more accurate understanding of the world around you....

• You are quoting utility numbers that are commonly published on EV supporting websites. You may want to research the real numbers so you have a better perspective of true costs and capacities....

@ETC
You write multiple pages with your pro diesel assertions while at the same time discredit "EV supporting websites", you pan comments for using "old data" and say that we must figure in the cost of building electric cars and solar panels.

At the same time you have not given one link. No peer reviewed, reports from your DOE or DOD coworkers, No listing of your "dangerous materials" in motors or batteries and from your side, we have not seen a dirt to wheel studies on your precious biofuel or the cost to build the powertrain for the cars that burn it.

Without corroborated facts, you're just blowing hot gaseous air, etc...

[JRP3]

Without corroborated facts, you're just blowing hot gaseous air, etc...

But it's fueled from bio diesel, so it's all good