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Thread: No Supercharging for 40Kwh :(

  1. #11
    Electron Pilot Todd Burch's Avatar
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    To paraphrase a former US president:

    That all depends on what your definition of Quick charge is...

    EVNow, what are you referring to when you say "Quick Charge"?

    Battery capacity absolutely affects quick charging, if you are referring to Tesla's supercharger (90 kW)...end users don't care about C rates...what matters for the end user with Quick Charging is miles/hour of charging. Since higher capacities give higher miles/hour of charge, there's an effect.

    I agree, there shouldn't be any problem quick charging the lower capacity battery at the same C rate as the larger pack.

    I'd say the lack of supercharger support for the base Model S is for at least 3 reasons:

    1) Tesla wants a way to pay for a nationwide network of Superchargers...forcing the upgrade to a 60 or 85 kWh pack is one way to help subsidize it.

    2) With the base pack, the superchargers would need to be MUCH closer together (perhaps 75-100 miles instead of 200 or so) for base customers to take advantage of them for long distance travel. That might require (VERY rough ballpark estimate) on the order of four times as many supercharger installations.

    3) Base pack customers are likely to be getting the car for short-distance commutes, and therefore a NEMA 14-50 is plenty for overnight charging.

    I'm sure there are more reasons.

    Edit: EVNow, I completely agree with you on a technical front (same C rate shouldn't matter)...I'm coming from an end user perspective, where the customer associates quick charging with miles per hour of charge.

  2. #12
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    I don't know, "Joe six-pack" might just as well recognize "80% charge in 30 min" as the definition of "fast charging." No reason to expect the smaller packs to have the same number of miles.

    I think that Japan's experience with ChadeMo has been that customers get much more use of low milage EVs, making them much more suitable to replace a gas car.

    It is a shame that Tesla will not offer fast charging on their 160-mile car. Best to get a TwinCharger and hope for some 80 amp ESVEs to pop up. Hope is not a good plan however. I know that wasn't how Japan got ChadeMo stations.

    GSP

    PS. The Leaf, the "i" and probably GM's Spark EV all support DC fast charging. Tesla is not keeping up in this department.

  3. #13
    Electron Pilot Todd Burch's Avatar
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    I'm still not seeing where you guys are saying the 40 kWh pack doesn't support quick charging...maybe I'm missing it?

    All I'm seeing is that the 40 kWh pack doesn't support the Tesla Supercharger (and I think this is for business reasons, not technical reasons).

    But is there anything that indicates it can't do other types of DC quick charges?

  4. #14
    Model S P2681 qwk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Burch View Post
    I'm still not seeing where you guys are saying the 40 kWh pack doesn't support quick charging...maybe I'm missing it?

    All I'm seeing is that the 40 kWh pack doesn't support the Tesla Supercharger (and I think this is for business reasons, not technical reasons).

    But is there anything that indicates it can't do other types of DC quick charges?
    Nope, they are just ASSuming....

  5. #15
    TSLA will win Norbert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSP View Post
    PS. The Leaf, the "i" and probably GM's Spark EV all support DC fast charging. Tesla is not keeping up in this department.
    I see your point, however Tesla also doesn't offer an 80 mile range or 100 mile range option. If you consider all the points made above (and in related threads), I think it comes down to Tesla's philosophy of offering good solutions first at the necessary higher price point and then drive the price down, meaning for Bluestar, or perhaps earlier, the price for an about 60-85 kWh pack including supercharging will be significantly lower. Tesla first focuses on offering a good solution and then lowering the price, whereas others focus on starting with a low price and try to squeeze in features.
    Buying an EV is one thing, being able to drive it beyond city limits another...

  6. #16
    Senior Member stopcrazypp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EVNow View Post
    Well, if a 24kWh Leaf battery with no cooling can be quick charged, I don't see why a 40kWh liquid cooled pack can't be. Besides, as you say, they can always use lower current.
    Completely different chemistry. The standard Lithium cobalt laptop cells in the 40kWh Model S are probably the worst in terms of charging/discharging C-rates and cycle life out of the battery types being used in EVs. Tesla just addresses that problem by using lots of them. Standard cycle life tests done by Panasonic (and probably most 18650 manufacturers) have a charging rate ranging from 0.5C-1.0C. The 2.25C is way over that and likely will affect the battery life significantly even if it can be safely done. But I do agree that lowering the charging current will easily address that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Burch View Post
    To paraphrase a former US president:

    That all depends on what your definition of Quick charge is...

    EVNow, what are you referring to when you say "Quick Charge"?
    To be fair, the general, most commonly used, definition for "Quick charge" is any significant charge (70+%) that is under an hour. Although there really is no "official" definition.
    http://www.cars21.com/files/news/EVS...20Botsford.pdf

    But I do agree that the charging speed figure that matters the most in the end is the miles/hour (although most people don't realize this, which gives PHEV sellers a chance to brag about how little time it takes to charge their relatively small battery pack).
    Because there are tons of crazy people in this world...

  7. #17
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    There is another thread talking about this. Merge ?

    Options / Pricing gripes for 160 mile version

    BTW, my impression is people getting the 300 mile model are saying it is OK for 160 mile model not to have QC. I'm interested in hearing what people who reserved a 40kWh "160 mile" model think about this. I can't beleive they are happy about this turn of events.
    MY11 Leaf : Feb-2011 to May-2013, MY13 Leaf : May-2013 to ?
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  8. #18
    Model S P2681 qwk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EVNow View Post
    There is another thread talking about this. Merge ?

    Options / Pricing gripes for 160 mile version

    BTW, my impression is people getting the 300 mile model are saying it is OK for 160 mile model not to have QC. I'm interested in hearing what people who reserved a 40kWh "160 mile" model think about this. I can't beleive they are happy about this turn of events.
    I don't think anybody is saying it's OK. I think that most are saying it was inevetable due to the smallish pack and battery chemistry.

    I for one think that this is a mistake. Tesla would sell more cars if they offered the supercharger charging at a lower rate for the base cars.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwk View Post
    I don't think anybody is saying it's OK. I think that most are saying it was inevetable due to the smallish pack and battery chemistry.
    Anyway, as I've explained this is not a technical limitation. This was a purely business decision.

    Ironically, Elon Musk called Nissan's battery "primitive". LOL.

    BTW, I should say I'm always aghast when EVs don't include QC option. I think it is very important to have QC option for widespread EV acceptability. I had the same reaction when news that Focus EV, RAV4EV or Fit EV wouldn't include QC came out.
    Last edited by EVNow; 2011-12-20 at 08:06 PM.
    MY11 Leaf : Feb-2011 to May-2013, MY13 Leaf : May-2013 to ?
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  10. #20
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    The Leaf, the Mitsubishi i, and probably the Spark EV all offer DC fast charging with smaller packs than the 160-mile Model S. I doubt there is a technical reason that prevents Tesla from offering this.

    GSP
    Last edited by GSP; 2011-12-21 at 05:56 AM.

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