Phoenix Motorcars SUT/SUV

DDB · Dec 28, 2006

Phoenix SUT

I thought this was worth mentioning...Phoenix is apparently on schedule ;D:

Altair Nanotechnologies Completes Li-Ion Battery Pack Order for Phoenix Motorcars
28 December 2006
Anano
Comparison of cycle life (18,000 cycles for Altairnano NanoSafe vs. 750 for conventional li-ion). Click to enlarge.

Altair Nanotechnologies Inc. announced today that it shipped ten rapid-charge, high-power li-ion battery packs to Phoenix Motorcars, Inc. on schedule. The shipment of the ten 35 kWh battery packs fulfills and completes the $750,000 order placed by Phoenix in July 2006.

The company placed an additional order for one 35 kWh battery pack which will be shipped later this week.

Altairnano’s NanoSafe battery packs power the Phoenix sport utility truck (SUT) and sport utility vehicle (SUV). Altairnano’s nano-Titanate-based batteries come in two battery pack configurations: 35 kWh and 70 kWh.

The 35 and 70 kWh NanoSafe packs provide sufficient power and energy for a fleet vehicle to travel up to 130 or 250 miles, respectively, with a top speed of more than 100 mph. Both NanoSafe battery packs can be recharged in less than 10 minutes using an industrial 480 volt battery charging platform.

The NanoSafe battery packs can also be charged over longer periods of time when using typical 120 or 240 volt power sources. An on-board charger is standard equipment for both the Phoenix SUT and SUV vehicles.

We are pleased with the on-time shipments, the quality and performance of the Altairnano NanoSafe battery packs. Early customer interest in our SUV and SUT vehicles has exceeded expectations. Phoenix has committed to use Altairnano’s NanoSafe battery packs exclusively and we anticipate placing more orders for the NanoSafe battery packs shortly. Phoenix is on track to begin commercial delivery of our full size, all electric Sport Utility Trucks to the fleet market in the spring of 2007.
—Daniel Elliott, CEO Phoenix Motorcars

In September, Altairnano and Alcoa AFL Automotive announced they will develop an integrated lithium-ion battery pack system for medium-duty hybrid trucks. The battery pack will use Altairnano’s NanoSafe battery technology and AFL Automotive’s electrical interconnect and application technology to integrate the battery pack system into the vehicle’s electrical architecture. (Earlier post.)

Altairnano replaces graphite anodes with its nano-Titanate material, which provides a very high surface area and reduces hazards by removing the graphite. The NanoSafe batteries charge in less than 10 minutes, have a power density of 4 kW/kg, have 85% charge retention at 20,000 cycles, will not explode and have no thermal runaway, according to the company.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/12/altair_nanotech.html#more

Dave

WarpedOne · Dec 29, 2006

Re: Phoenix SUT

This is a very good news (TM).

Even more important than Phoenix being on schedule is that nanosafe batteris are materializing. Their inital price is of course ... initial ;D
The best thing about them is their supposed 18.000+ cycle life, high power (10C) capability and suposed inherent safety. Cost will go down, don't you worry

Is this too good to be true?

asdar · Dec 29, 2006

Re: Phoenix SUT

I think the question I have is whether the price will come down enough. Lithium costs quite a bit, and the market for that is too big to ignore.

The first batch of 10 doesn't count, in my opinion, as far as the actual price/cost. Being the first one to get these with all the hype, licensing, charging station tech and such is going to cost. I doubt very much that they plan on selling batteries at a loss and Phoenix has put the starting price on the SUT at $45k I believe.

It'll be the 1,000th battery that I think will be a sign of how successful this SUT and battery company will be.

The weight of the Altair battery needs to be double the Tesla for the same range(Altair site, front page graph of energy) as the batteries the Tesla uses. The 35kWh must weigh something like 1,000+ lbs. I think I've read quite a few places that the Lith-ion batteries for the Tesla cost $20k. If they cost roughly the same to produce and they pay for the Lithium at close to the same price that'd put the 150 mile range battery at $20k.

If it goes as high as $30k, for just the battery then I think the car is out of range for most people.

They've been smart, like Tesla and hit the right market. The fleet market is wide open, and this car would pretty easily pay for itself at $45k in a busy fleet. The charging station and many of the typical electric car stuff would be common so there'd be less overlap.

WarpedOne · Dec 31, 2006

Re: Phoenix SUT

from another blog:

“NO, the battery packs do NOT cost $75,000 apiece. They cost approximately $14,000 each. Most of the $750,000 was for engineering service fees performed by Altair in engineering the batteries and packs for the vehicles Phoenix is using."

DDB · Dec 31, 2006

Re: Phoenix SUT

3 questions:

1) who qualifies as a fleet? Is it just based on volume or do you have to have some sort of affiliation with a legitimate entity rather than just a group who bands together and places one massive order.

2) what is the minimum number of units that can be purchased?

3) are these vehicles only available to those in CA?

Thoughts?

TEG · Jun 27, 2007

Re: Phoenix SUT

Update... Not only does Phoenix have their SUT, but Altairnano is working with them on an SUV as well.

tonybelding · Jun 27, 2007

Re: Phoenix SUT

asdar said:
I think the question I have is whether the price will come down enough. Lithium costs quite a bit, and the market for that is too big to ignore.

I'm optimistic about battery prices. It's not a technology problem, it's a manufacturing problem.

Compare with LCD panels, for example. . . They are some of the most difficult and complex things to manufacture that have ever been invented. You can probably remember how expensive they were years ago when they first appeared. What happened is that big companies like Samsung and Matsushita invested in huge, sophisticated, automated factories and brought the cost down. Now they cost a small fraction of what the early ones did.

The same thing can and should happen with lithium-ion batteries. Manufacturers just need to see the demand first to justify building those plants.

TEG · Sep 14, 2007

Electric auto players ready to roll out vehicles in U.S. - MarketWatch

"Daniel Elliott, CEO of Phoenix Motorcars, said the Rancho Cucamonga, Calif.-based company will begin selling its electric, four-door pickup truck to the fleet market next year with a likely roll-out to the consumer market in 2009.
...
Phoenix faced a delay in getting certification for its electric car because of the type of plug it's using to charge the cars, but company officials expect to resolve the issue in time for its launch next year."

Brent · Sep 14, 2007

TEG said:
Phoenix faced a delay in getting certification for its electric car because of the type of plug it's using...

Is there no hope for a universal plug?

vfx · Sep 14, 2007

The sales guy told me that they would let a dozen or so SUVs go to regular consumers. They just have to be within 200 miles of their Ontario factory.

DDB · Nov 1, 2007

Most of you probably saw the autobloggreen article on Phoenix. Anyway, the word is that Phoenix is in trouble because it canceled its orders for a ton of electric engines.... My thinking is they've spent a llot of time and money developing the prototypes, which by most accounts suggest it works. But their business model is flawed, depending on things in government to remain the same. If the Phoenix is so expensive to manufacture, would it not be viable to lease the car?

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/1...ancels-uqm-technologies-motor-order/#comments

Perhaps it is just time to sell to a manufacturer? Ford or Chrysler may be decent candidates.

Kardax · Nov 1, 2007

I just noticed that. I'm sure Phoenix's 500-or-so customers are very interested to hear an official explanation about this.

Offering the car for lease wouldn't make it any less expensive to manufacture, but it could generate higher long-term revenue.

I don't think Phoenix is the sort of company that Ford/Chrysler/etc would be interested in buying. Phoenix doesn't have any unique technologies, and doesn't even add much value to the sum of all those parts they buy from third parties.

-Ryan / Kardax

JRP3 · Nov 2, 2007

Phoenix may not be in trouble at all considering this just released statement:

Through new efficiencies provided by new motor technology and the use of composite components, Ontario-based Phoenix Motorcars announces that it is on the road to producing over 500 Phoenix Sport Utility Trucks (SUTs) featuring more compact packaging of the Altairnano (NASDAQ: ALTI) Nanosafe™ battery than originally projected.

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/marketwire/0323402.htm

I can't wait for details about the new motor technology and the new battery packaging.

DDB · Nov 2, 2007

It's a little ironic that Tesla's own Daryl Siry is the one who triggered the big news regarding Phoenix.

http://2fwww.autobloggreen.com/2007...ancels-uqm-technologies-motor-order/#comments

It may be public information, but given the last public scrap with Miles, just stay out of it... These EV companies need to learn that all of them collectively would have a much better shot at selling EVs if they focus on broadening the market in general (ie offering more products).

Kardax · Nov 2, 2007

The Phoenix Press release ( http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/marketwire/0323402.htm ) does shine more light on the situation. It looks like what I wondered out loud at AutoblogGreen is exactly what happened: Phoenix switched motor suppliers.

The new part is their decision to switch to a smaller battery pack (along with a downward range revision to "100+ miles").

I'm curious what this means for their production schedule. They may have to re-do all their crash tests with these changes. They'll still have to do EPA range testing to figure out what "100+ miles" really is. They haven't been very transparent so there could be a lot more going on. All this makes an "early 2008" release seem very unlikely.

-Ryan / Kardax

TEG · Nov 2, 2007

Kardax said:
The Phoenix Press release ( http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/marketwire/0323402.htm ) does shine more light on the situation.

From the article: "With a peak power output of 200 kW"...

Um, like HELLO... Isn't the Tesla eMotor ~200kW ?!

Perhaps Tesla isn't keeping their motor just for themselves!

Kardax · Nov 2, 2007

Tesla isn't the only company making motors in that KW range. Still, it is an interesting coincidence.

Tesla axed the Think deal back in September to remain focused on the Roadster. This makes it seem unlikely they'd be interested in any new deals, especially with a potential competitor on their own turf.

-Ryan / Kardax

JRP3 · Nov 21, 2007

Phoenix partnering with VW to build EV's in Mexico. This could be big if a major player like VW is involved.

Phoenix Motorcars , a California-based electric vehicle company, announced today that they have signed a Letter of Intent (LOI) to enter into a joint venture with Pristine International SAdeSV to build all electric vehicles for shipment within Mexico, other regions in Latin America and to the Indian sub-continent.

The plant will be constructed in Puebla, Mexico on 18 acres of land provided through the efforts of Puebla's governor, Mario Marin Torres. Volkswagen of Mexico will also be a participant in the venture. Terms of the joint venture were not disclosed pending finalization of the agreement.

http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/news/2007/pr_071119.html

TEG · Dec 27, 2007

Phoenix REEV

Phoenix to work on plug-in series hybrid - AutoblogGreen
Green Car Congress: Phoenix Motorcars and UQM to Develop Plug-In Series Hybrid Sport Utility Truck

Motor order cancelled (switching to Tesla or giving up?)

JRP3 · Dec 27, 2007

I wonder if they are still working on a REEV since they no longer seem to be working with UQM.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/electric-cars/650-phoenix-motorcars-sut-suv.html#post3604

Maybe they just canceled the motor order for the BEV but are still working with UQM on the hybrid, but that seems unlikely.

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