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Zero-Carbon ICE fuel

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Nik

Got there eventually :-)
Jan 18, 2011
245
1
Cambridge, UK
http://www.airfuelsynthesis.com/news/32-fuel-from-thin-air-in-teesside.html

A real alternative to fossil fuels

Air Fuel Synthesis is pioneering a revolutionary concept to provide a secure,stable , and sustainable alternative to the world's constant uncertainty about the future of oil-based products.

Air Fuel Synthesis uses renewable energy to do what nature does with photosynthesis and time, converting atmospheric carbon dioxide into oil Put simply, Air Fuel Synthesis converts air and water into synthetic hydrocarbon liquids from which fuels or other oil based products can be made.


Oil is basically made from carbon and hydrogen. Carbon is in the air in the form of carbon dioxide and hydrogen can be found in water.

Air Fuel Synthesis (AFS) is the process of turning carbon in air and hydrogen in water into fuel.

Air Fuel Synthesis has identified suitable technologies and is now in a pilot stage and intends to develop this process to a commercial scale.

Demonstration from November 2011, apparently. Until then, this reporter remains sceptical
 
My gut tells me this is a 'novelty' and the amount of electricity needed to "construct" artificial petroleum products would cause it to be very inefficient as an energy carrier (taking into account everything.) Better off using batteries and charging them directly. Battery improvements will be more worthwhile long term.

Looking at the 'big picture', I would think algae based bio-diesel would be a better aircraft solution long term as well until the day we get the "electric jet".
 
-<yawn>- Wake me up when we have cold fusion - that's the only way it will be economical to crack water. Those are some VERY stable bonds. for now all hydrogen comes from Natural Gas. At least the source is domestic but green it isn't.
 
Don't confuse cold fusion with fusion in general. Cold fusion caused a stir in the late '80s and there were some small rumblings again about a decade back regarding sonoluminescence, but it's been largely debunked (or at least shunned).

In the Mahalo video, Elon specifically mentioned magnetic confinement, I suppose like a tokamak. This is in contrast to inertial confinement like they're trying at NIF.
 
Sorry, I forget we have a bunch of physics nerds here. My point was that until we have extremely abundant, extremely cheap electricity, cracking water is a terrible way to get Hydrogen. Cold fusion was the first thing I thought of that satisfies the above.
 
I've been DOUG'ed!
BOO-YA!!! I knew all this physics was good for something.

Sorry, I forget we have a bunch of physics nerds here. My point was that until we have extremely abundant, extremely cheap electricity, cracking water is a terrible way to get Hydrogen. Cold fusion was the first thing I thought of that satisfies the above.
I think most people understood what you meant, and what you said made sense. Just that vfx suggested that Elon said cold fusion was easy, which would really be something since 1) that would be a bold statement even for Elon and 2) cold fusion is generally ridiculed by the physics community.

Ironically, a cold fusion experiment is essentially an electrolysis setup. A scientist actually died violently in the early '90s while doing cold fusion research at SRI, just around the corner from us in Menlo Park. The experiment ended up producing hydrogen gas through electrolysis and exploded sending pieces of the apparatus through his face and injuring a few others.
 
Taking CO2 out of the atmosphere and then putting it back (plus heat) is not exactly zero-carbon.
It could be carbon neutral, but bothering to take it out of the atmosphere is the silly part. The atmosphere is less that 0.04% CO2 by volume. You're much better off capturing it from the exhaust of a coal plant.

Taken as a whole this Air Fuel Synthesis would be such a massive waste of energy. If something like methanol is the end goal, you're much better off getting it from waste processing and then from biofuels.
 
Yes, but if that cycle were 100%* efficient it would be carbon neutral.

*a big if, obviously.
Depends how you define efficient. You could use renewable solar energy for the entire process. Something I'd call horribly inefficient since you could probably fuel an EV for many more miles on the same energy. But since the input power was solar it could still be carbon neutral (ignoring the carbon cost of building the solar panels, of course).

It's like those H2 advocates that seem to think renewable energy is free. It's not. It cost money and energy to build the systems to get it. There is then the opportunity cost of the non-renewable energy you could be displacing if you weren't wasting it to make H2 or "Zero-Carbon ICE fuel".
 
Yeah.

I'd support using it in this way to make methanol for planes though. Then we could convert the plane fleet to carbon neutral (real carbon neutral, not some sweep-it-under-the-carpet offsetting BS) pretty easily. Then the Model S Beta carbon footprint thread would look very different :biggrin:
 
[ EDIT: I see Doug had a similar response as I was composing this... ]

If they can somehow get carbon out of the air without releasing other carbon somewhere else in the process.
I suppose if your process was 100% hydro or solar powered, and all your supplies are delivered in solar powered EVs, and all those EVs were made using carbon free power sources, etc, etc.

I think some of it rolls back to "simple is probably better". Their process may involve some sort of pollution somewhere.

Technology - A little about the technologies Air Fuel Synthesis will be using
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Air Fuel Synthesis technology proven by September? : Biofuels Digest
...In the UK, Air Fuel Synthesis revealed that it is constructing two reactors that convert atmospheric CO2 and hydrogen extracted from water, and converting it into methanol. AFS scientists, according to the company are supervising a team of chemical engineering experts from the Centre for Processing Innovation (CPI) in Teesside to prove their technology within a manufacturing process, and expect to have their technology so running by September.
“We are building two reactors that can be used in different ways,” said Peter Harrison, of Air Fuel Synthesis, “so that we have potential to produce methanol. The methanol can then be converted for petrol or can be converted into a hydrocarbon liquid which we hope will be similar to aviation fuel.”...

Is there pollution and/or CO2 release involved in converting the methanol into auto/aviation fuel?
 
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Also, we ought to consider both direct air pollution and greenhouse gasses.
For instance, if all you did is take CO2 out of the air, turn it into a hydrocarbon fuel, then burn/process it back to CO2 in the air again maybe that isn't so bad.
But what if you take CO2 from the air, blend it with Hydrogen extracted from water, convert it into hydrocarbons, then release hydrocarbon pollution into the air.
Maybe I am missing something here, but couldn't that be a mechanism to make smog and cause direct lung / health problems?
It isn't just about "global warming", right?
 
"Air Fuel Synthesis has identified suitable technologies and is now in a pilot stage and intends to develop this process to a commercial scale."

Basically that says they have a business plan on existing technology. But this thread goes on the techy details, doubting efficiency, feasibility, and if calling it "carbon neutral" is viable. This discussion seems way behind to me.

Space heating now is available from synthetic natural gas that was generated per hydrolysis using excessive electric wind power. It's even cheaper than fossil natural gas. Provided by my utility Windgas - Greenpeace Energy eG

Solar Fuel runs a demonstration plant since 2009 (size: two containers) to suck carbon from air and turn it into synthetic methane. 25kW of electricity produce enough methane to power 2 CNG vehicles. Find their statement (in German) here: alpha-Anlage läuft SolarFuel GmbH - Strom aus erneuerbaren Quellen
CIMG1578_8a01115f17.jpg


The new Audi strategy Audi Balanced Mobility is based on that technology and builds a 6MW demonstration plant with increased efficiency. The CO2 comes from a biomass plant.