Project Better Place

[tonybelding]

Shai Agassi's company finally has a name! It's "Project Better Place" -- as in, making the world a better place. (It's too bad "Feel Good Cars" was already taken, don't you think?)

Also, it turns out that PBP isn't a car company. Instead their goal is to set up networks of charging stations and battery-exchange stations in urban areas.

“We’re basically saying this is just like the cellular phone model,” he said. “If you think of Tesla as the iPhone, we’re AT&T.”

Here's the company website:

http://www.projectbetterplace.com/

Here are some articles:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/29/te.../29agassi.html

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/...027_825187.htm

http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/-shai-...29/3050233.htm

Note the NYT article which incorrectly -- and infuriatingly -- blames Tesla's delays on problems with the battery pack. As far as I can tell, the ESS has been about the most trouble-free component in the car.

[TEG]

That sounds like a tough business model. If we had a lot of EV users clamoring for recharging spots and replacement batteries then I could see the need, but it sounds like a chicken and egg problem right now. They are going to be competing with people who already can do recharging at home.

Good luck to them.

Perhaps if they have Tesla Roadsters for lease, I might find them useful!

[TEG]

Perhaps Tesla's success with the VCs has caught the eye of other "serial entrepreneurs?"

By the way, Google has been soliciting proposals for plug-in hybrid projects to fund.

[Brent]

Based on what I read, it seems he wants to attack the battery problem largely from the swap angle, but also set up a recharge network. Perhaps he's hedging his bets.

I think he has several huge challenges ahead:

1) Convincing auto makers to go electric;

2) Convincing auto makers to use his standard, rather than whatever they come up with;

3) Convincing auto makers that they can design a safe car that can allow for quick changes of batteries that are heavy, cumbersome, and possibly lethal;

4) Convincing drivers to recharge at his stations rather than at home, hotels, or elsewhere;

5) etc...

Like TEG, I wish him well, but I wonder whether he is crossing the bridge before he comes to it...

[DDB]

Why not invest the $200m in quick-charging batteries? Sounds like a hell of a lot better plan than revamping all of the infrastructure.

From what I understand, this business model is not meant for the US anyhow...It sounds someone plausible in Israel or other densely packed country. I think those VC dollars would do much better in another company, like ZAP--what does that tell you about what this investor thinks of the idea?

[SByer]

Because charging any faster than Tesla's 3.5 hours won't work without major infrastructure improvements - Tesla is already pushing home charging about as hard as they can. To charge any faster starts requiring significant changes or improvements in cabling, thermal management, and electrical supply capacity.

I also think it's the wrong end of the equation to work on for BEVs - if you can work on the range enough, then the need to quick charge essentially goes away, and just having in place a matrix of potential overnight charging spots fills out the picture better than any attempt at coming up with a standard for quick-exchange batteries.

-Scott

[mt2]

Because charging any faster than Tesla's 3.5 hours won't work without major infrastructure improvements - Tesla is already pushing home charging about as hard as they can. To charge any faster starts requiring significant changes or improvements in cabling, thermal management, and electrical supply capacity.

I also think it's the wrong end of the equation to work on for BEVs - if you can work on the range enough, then the need to quick charge essentially goes away, and just having in place a matrix of potential overnight charging spots fills out the picture better than any attempt at coming up with a standard for quick-exchange batteries.

-Scott

Agreed. building gas stations 100 years ago made sense because there was a need, a standard delivery mechanism (a hose), and no existing infrastructure. Building an infrastructure to deliver electricity to cars today doesn't make sense to me. At best, you'll get 25 years out of them and be out of business.

• The electricity delivery infrastructure in is already expanding to accommodate more than just cars.
• There is no standard for delivery to the vehicle.
• There is no standard for quick swap batteries.
• Residential and community power generation is picking up speed.
• And vehicle range will only improve.

[DDB]

Because charging any faster than Tesla's 3.5 hours won't work without major infrastructure improvements - Tesla is already pushing home charging about as hard as they can. To charge any faster starts requiring significant changes or improvements in cabling, thermal management, and electrical supply capacity.

-Scott

That sounds like one of those quotes that suggests there can be no more advances in technology because everything has been invented.

I get that you can't charge your car in ten minutes by plugging into a 220 volt receptical. There are supercaps, which can be used for disbursing lots of energy at once. A combination of a regular battery and supercap may solve the quick charge problem. You could let your home charging station run essentially 24/7 gathering all of the energy needed to charge your EV, then connect the car for a 10 minute fill-up. Do I have a clue how to do it, no. But I'll bet there's some techies out there that do.

[malcolm]

The advantage of slow recharging is reduced energy consumption. At present, a 3.5 hr charge of the 53 kWh ESS requires 70 kWh of energy (32% more energy!). The extra is needed to run the ESS cooling system. Slower charge rates generate less heat and reduce this energy overhead.

[tonybelding]

It's a question of cost versus benefit.

Fast charging at home is not a priority, because your car is typically sitting there all night anyhow. So. . . Not much benefit. But the costs of a fast-charge system with some kind of buffer (supercapacitors, flywheels, etc.) and cable as thick as your arm would be much, much higher.

I feel like the only way fast charging could make economic sense is if you get people to accept cars with smaller batteries and reduced range. If the car's range is 60-100 miles, then charging in five or ten minutes isn't that far-fetched. The cars could be much less expensive. I can imagine lots of these little "city cars" and fast-charging stations deployed around the cities to support them. But then you are getting into the chicken-and-egg problem, because you need both the cars and the charging stations available before it makes much sense.

Tesla's approach, on the other hand, doesn't rely on the deployment of a big new charging infrastructure. It also doesn't rely on people long accustomed to gasoline cars with 300+ miles range suddenly deciding they can accept 60 or 100 miles.

With Tesla the downside is the cost of the car. To get that super-long range they have to use a very large and expensive battery, and then offset part of the battery's weight by using expensive materials (carbon fiber!) in the car.

The other way to go is PHEV, of course -- which is very promising. I think what GM are attempting with the Volt looks quite good.