There was a link the other day that talked about how Tesla is shooting for a drag coefficient under 0.2, and had a picture of a really aero VW vehicle with covered rear wheels. I have never seen a car with covered rear wheels that looked good. The success of the Model 3 and Tesla relies on a good looking car that everyone wants to buy because of its appearance and performance. It they make it something only an extreme tree hugger would buy, we are in trouble. They would be repeating the mistakes made by Nissan, BMW, GM, and everyone else that has chosen to make green cars weird looking....
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I'd agree as it throws off the aesthetic balance. Puts more visual weighting towards the rear. Just ends up looking funny.
Hope Tesla finds laminar ways of routing air around the vehicle while enhancing structural beauty at highway speeds.
Of course the Ford GT comes to mind http://www.motortrend.com/news/spied-2017-ford-gt-mule-ditches-show-cars-polish/ of how it routes air through the frame over the rear wheels to create downforce, but use the similar phenomenon to keep eddies/turbulence or a vacuum from forming at the rear.
Typically this is done with a more rounded rear, but this ends up looking funny as well, but I'd bet Tesla has tricks up their sleeve to make it slippery in the wind as well as gorgeous.
Hope Tesla finds laminar ways of routing air around the vehicle while enhancing structural beauty at highway speeds.
Of course the Ford GT comes to mind http://www.motortrend.com/news/spied-2017-ford-gt-mule-ditches-show-cars-polish/ of how it routes air through the frame over the rear wheels to create downforce, but use the similar phenomenon to keep eddies/turbulence or a vacuum from forming at the rear.
Typically this is done with a more rounded rear, but this ends up looking funny as well, but I'd bet Tesla has tricks up their sleeve to make it slippery in the wind as well as gorgeous.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Like I said in that thread they can be optional,detachable,repairable and replaceable. Front and back for balance.
You lose a tad of Cd by making them a separate piece due to the crease but gain much flexibility.
At some point the Feds will allow cameras instead of rear view mirrors. Some people will freak out about not having rear view mirrors.
Again make them optional.
You can have a "max aero" button package.
You lose a tad of Cd by making them a separate piece due to the crease but gain much flexibility.
At some point the Feds will allow cameras instead of rear view mirrors. Some people will freak out about not having rear view mirrors.
Again make them optional.
You can have a "max aero" button package.
That was exactly my first thought when I read about the über-drag coefficient number... Well, so far 2 out of 2 stunning cars, so I'll give the benfit of the doubt to Franz and his team.
robatbeach
Member
Don't see them following what others have done before...seems too far from Musk and Tesla culture.
the real balance issue is: being innovative Tesla on one hand vs schedule and time to market on the other. The innovation comes with real schedule risk.
Another challenge for them is mass market cars are usually boring and not sexy. Tesla is trying to build a mass market car...will some innovations turn off a big percent of prospective buyers that are only looking for a basic "appliance" car?
the real balance issue is: being innovative Tesla on one hand vs schedule and time to market on the other. The innovation comes with real schedule risk.
Another challenge for them is mass market cars are usually boring and not sexy. Tesla is trying to build a mass market car...will some innovations turn off a big percent of prospective buyers that are only looking for a basic "appliance" car?
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Nobody wants an "appliance" car when they can have something "sexy" with the same utility and price.
Look at sales of Crossover Utility Vehicles vs Minivans.
Crossovers made on the same exact platforms as minivans sell multiples higher. Despite slightly smaller interiors because they have a bit "sexier" styling.
The vast majority of people want conservative with a little flair. Not avant garde. Not futuristic. Not weird.
Hitting that sweet spot can be difficult. Not appliance boring but not avant garde weird.
"Don't see them following what others have done before...seems too far from Musk and Tesla culture. "
Tesla Roadster was basically a Lotus Roadster.
Model S is basically an Aston Martin with a unique grill(faux in this case).
The styling of Model X is conventional CUV with unique nose.
This pretty standard in the industry. Conventional styling with a different nose. Or a corporate grill. This is where designers try to add that little flair to conventional design. At least that seems to be the goal for 90% of the vehicles out there.
So far Tesla is no different and has had wide appeal with demand exceeding supply.
Look at sales of Crossover Utility Vehicles vs Minivans.
Crossovers made on the same exact platforms as minivans sell multiples higher. Despite slightly smaller interiors because they have a bit "sexier" styling.
The vast majority of people want conservative with a little flair. Not avant garde. Not futuristic. Not weird.
Hitting that sweet spot can be difficult. Not appliance boring but not avant garde weird.
"Don't see them following what others have done before...seems too far from Musk and Tesla culture. "
Tesla Roadster was basically a Lotus Roadster.
Model S is basically an Aston Martin with a unique grill(faux in this case).
The styling of Model X is conventional CUV with unique nose.
This pretty standard in the industry. Conventional styling with a different nose. Or a corporate grill. This is where designers try to add that little flair to conventional design. At least that seems to be the goal for 90% of the vehicles out there.
So far Tesla is no different and has had wide appeal with demand exceeding supply.
If you wanna hope for something, hope that Tesla already figured out how to make a sexy 3-series sized car with sub .2 Cd. Wheel covers or not.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
We will find out this March. So will Tesla. :wink:
If not they have ~18 months to revise.
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
robatbeach
Member
Agreed; that was the balance to which I was referring.
Roadster was pretty much in progress when Elon took over.
The S is a car whose innovations were granted more on the inside.
For the X, I can only say: Gull Wing Doors.
I can only go by the statements that they have made that seem to imply that they want to change how a car looks. What innovation they do there, it's impact on schedule, and the reaction of the market is what I find very interesting.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
The X does not have gull wing doors but falcon wing doors.
That is design-engineering functionality. Not styling.*
Before Elon took over as CEO he was the Angle Investor/Controlling partner. If you think Elon had a hands off approach to a major investment you don't know Elon.
*99.999999% of the time doors are closed. Excluding douche bags in college parking lots having a tailgate party with rear doors open.
The traditional car fan are always the most vocal. Anything that deviates too much from the way 'a car is supposed to looks like' is labeled ugly. But that doesn't represent the general opinion. I always get bad comments in any car related online community (which is frequented by car fans) for my disks wheels. In normal life I had many random people come up to me with a very positive reaction and genuine interest. So I wouldn't give the opinion on this board too much weight. It's not representing the general public.
Have you ever seen anyone post about how awesome the Prius looks? Well it's selling very very well for many years now because it is very functional. Tesla will make the Model 3 look great, one way or another.
Have you ever seen anyone post about how awesome the Prius looks? Well it's selling very very well for many years now because it is very functional. Tesla will make the Model 3 look great, one way or another.
physicsfita
Member
I made the mistake of posting about how I like the looks of my Prius exactly once -- I'm still smarting from the blowback... :tongue: I like cars I can actually find in the parking lot. For me, though, the interior is far more important because that's the part of the car I see the most. (But what do I know -- I actually liked the looks of the Bolt concept car when I saw it at NAIAS.)
The concerns voiced in most of the prior posts instantly made me think of the wheels and wheel wells in pickup trucks, such as my F-350.
They are absolutely cavernous, and were they to have been introduced all of a sudden into a car-buying public that was used to, say, the wheel and wheel well configurations of a Model S or any other similar vehicle, there would be howls of revulsion. Instead, it is considered to be normal.
Likewise, were all vehicles over the past century to have had wheel well covers, the sheer nakedness of a bare tire & rim would be met with cries of derision and denouncements of apostasy.
Lesson: there is absolutely nothing awkward, funny, imbalanced or odd about a car with well covers. It's just other than what we're used to.
They are absolutely cavernous, and were they to have been introduced all of a sudden into a car-buying public that was used to, say, the wheel and wheel well configurations of a Model S or any other similar vehicle, there would be howls of revulsion. Instead, it is considered to be normal.
Likewise, were all vehicles over the past century to have had wheel well covers, the sheer nakedness of a bare tire & rim would be met with cries of derision and denouncements of apostasy.
Lesson: there is absolutely nothing awkward, funny, imbalanced or odd about a car with well covers. It's just other than what we're used to.
I never had a problem stating that. I also like the Aztec styling--might have bought one if it wasn't made by GM.
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The problem with wheel well covers is the inconvenience of removing them when change a tire. This is a real problem when changing a flat in winter when it's snowy (or putting chains on for that matter). Citroen solved the problem by having the entire quarter panel being able to be removed using just one bolt.
FIddle dee dee. The problem with tires is having to remove them when changing a tire. I'd rather remove twenty covers than one tire...and those 20 would take less time than one of the latter. Removing a wheel cover is a piece of cake next to removing a tire...ESPECIALLY!!! in wintertime. And, as you write, Citroen solved even that problem.
ratsbew
Active Member
I personally hope that Tesla offers an "Aerodynamics Package" for the Model 3 to add stuff like wheel covers and extra aero features. I'd pay money for the lowest drag version. I want max range and lowest energy usage.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Now that you mention timeline, I'm kind of worried that such an ambitious aero goal will mean another delay. Of course this is still just a rumor right now. Even if true, maybe Tesla will offer it as a aero package and still release the main car on time.
If Lo-drag/Max-aero does indeed turn out to be an option and Tesla does the initial launch showing the car WITHOUT it then everyone will be happy - until deliveries start and we get a thread on here: "Tesla lied. Cd<0.2 not possible without weird add-ons, I'm furious" etc.
If Lo-drag/Max-aero is fitted as standard then we'll get "Tesla's weirdmobile looks awful, I'm furious" etc threads
<sigh>
If Lo-drag/Max-aero is fitted as standard then we'll get "Tesla's weirdmobile looks awful, I'm furious" etc threads
<sigh>
