Fukuta supply role to Tesla

FrozenCanuck · Oct 21, 2015

Hey TMC gang,

So we've got this guy, Bill K, on Twitter. He's your typical bear with one major exception. He's a total Kripkean dogmatist, meaning he's somehow unable to look at any data beyond the very few data points he has. He keeps harping on Tesla for using Taiwanese "Fukuta" as a supplier, which is apparently a problem in his mind. He's convinced Tesla buys full motors from them and does not make their own motors. It would be fine if he held those beliefs and had rational discussion about it all, but he's now trolling all kinds of journalists and others who mention $TSLA. He's obsessed with this notion that Tesla's Taiwanese motor supplier can't scale, and now (with the Consumer Reports thing), they obviously also make ****** motors that fail.

After ranting on Twitter about this forever, he's now put this idiotic post out on the web:
Elon Musk and Tesla Motors secret motor supplier. | Bridging Money, Finance, and Technology

A run down on Bill-thinking:

1) Fukuta makes motors. They have a whole catalog of motors!
2) Tesla used to buy motors from them for the Roadster
3) Therefore, Tesla continues to buy full motors from them in the Model S
4) Tesla's 10K from 2010 says they moved motor production to California, but that must be a lie because ... you know ... Fukuta has a catalog!
5) Elon even tweeted about this saying Fukuta is a sub-component supplier, but he's lying! It's impossible. Fukuta has a catalog!
6) China Steel Corp is an investor in Fukuta, and they say "Fukuta is the only supplier of motor iron cores for TESLA Motors". But that's a lie too! They've got a catalog! They MUST sell full motors! (Side note: I'm not sure the wording on the China Steel website is correct, but that's what they say here: CSC Corporate Social Responsibility)
7) There is documentary video footage of Tesla putting these motors together in California. It's horse crap! Fukuta makes entire motors as clearly seen in their catalog!

Need I go on?

Go have fun. His Twitter handle is Bi11k.
BillK (@Bi11K) | Twitter

Spidy · Oct 21, 2015

Why do you care about a guy with now followers and a crappy blog?

Causalien · Oct 22, 2015

FrozenCanuck said:
Hey TMC gang,

So we've got this guy, Bill K, on Twitter. He's your typical bear with one major exception. He's a total Kripkean dogmatist, meaning he's somehow unable to look at any data beyond the very few data points he has. He keeps harping on Tesla for using Taiwanese "Fukuta" as a supplier, which is apparently a problem in his mind. He's convinced Tesla buys full motors from them and does not make their own motors. It would be fine if he held those beliefs and had rational discussion about it all, but he's now trolling all kinds of journalists and others who mention $TSLA. He's obsessed with this notion that Tesla's Taiwanese motor supplier can't scale, and now (with the Consumer Reports thing), they obviously also make ****** motors that fail.

After ranting on Twitter about this forever, he's now put this idiotic post out on the web:
Elon Musk and Tesla Motors secret motor supplier. | Bridging Money, Finance, and Technology

A run down on Bill-thinking:

1) Fukuta makes motors. They have a whole catalog of motors!
2) Tesla used to buy motors from them for the Roadster
3) Therefore, Tesla continues to buy full motors from them in the Model S
4) Tesla's 10K from 2010 says they moved motor production to California, but that must be a lie because ... you know ... Fukuta has a catalog!
5) Elon even tweeted about this saying Fukuta is a sub-component supplier, but he's lying! It's impossible. Fukuta has a catalog!
6) China Steel Corp is an investor in Fukuta, and they say "Fukuta is the only supplier of motor iron cores for TESLA Motors". But that's a lie too! They've got a catalog! They MUST sell full motors! (Side note: I'm not sure the wording on the China Steel website is correct, but that's what they say here: CSC Corporate Social Responsibility)
7) There is documentary video footage of Tesla putting these motors together in California. It's horse crap! Fukuta makes entire motors as clearly seen in their catalog!

Need I go on?

Go have fun. His Twitter handle is Bi11k.
BillK (@Bi11K) | Twitter

There is no problem with being associated with Taiwanese sub contractors. Elon picked Taiwan for many components because Taiwan has a technological specialty in the metal refinement and reshaping sector (A sector that is all but dead in USA). A bit less precise than Japan but at half the cost. We are talking about the difference of 0.1 mm before grinding (for Japan) and 0.15 mm (for Taiwan) differences, whereas Germany has the technology to produce 0.01 mm precision but at 5x the cost (And they no longer do for obvious economic reasons). This is the data from 5 years ago. I am guessing Taiwan has now caught up with Japan and China has now caught up with Taiwan of 5 years ago.

Fukuta also makes many components for other traditional ICE manufactures. To shut the Twitter troll up, just mention that GM is one of them and accuse him of being racist to use Social Justice against him. Ask if he likes his iPhone, then tell him that they are made by a Taiwanese company from a factory in China.

Ah I miss the good old days of trolling trolls.

Avenger · Oct 25, 2015

Page two of the Fukuta catalog - Model S-

Lots of great products come from Taiwan. My point is Elon Musk is claiming Tesla Motors builds the motor - its clearly not the truth.

(

- - - Updated - - -

Hello - if you would please refute any of the items in my blog post with data or factual statements.

JRP3 · Oct 25, 2015

It's no secret that Fukuta supplies parts for Tesla. Exactly what parts I'm not sure, they may supply the rotor, just as SKF provides the bearings. No one would then claim that SKF builds the motors.

gene · Oct 25, 2015

JRP3 said:
It's no secret that Fukuta supplies parts for Tesla. Exactly what parts I'm not sure, they may supply the rotor, just as SKF provides the bearings. No one would then claim that SKF builds the motors.

I have been in the area of the factory where the motors are made. Tesla has an amazing machine they designed and built themselves to wind the wire around the armature. In the same area, the robot was loading and soldering the batteries together. I have an engineering background so I was keen to see all the bits and pieces fitting together. As far as I can figure, the only parts in the drive unit that may be sourced from the outside are the ring and pinion gear of the differential and likely the bearings. The castings are made in Tesla's own foundry. I'd wager that 90% or more of the parts are made by Tesla and I assure you the drive unit is 100% assembled in Fremont. I saw it with my own eyes.

JRP3 · Oct 25, 2015

Proof of Tesla building the motor in house, stator winding at 5:40 Notice the workers are not Asian. https://youtu.be/ZOriitPjlcw?t=5m40s

gene · Oct 25, 2015

JRP3 said:
Proof of Tesla building the motor in house, stator winding at 5:40 Notice the workers are not Asian. https://youtu.be/ZOriitPjlcw?t=5m40s

Yep, that is exactly what I saw taking place in Fremont, California.

Causalien · Oct 25, 2015

Avenger said:
Page two of the Fukuta catalog - Model S-

Lots of great products come from Taiwan. My point is Elon Musk is claiming Tesla Motors builds the motor - its clearly not the truth.

(View attachment 99168

- - - Updated - - -

Hello - if you would please refute any of the items in my blog post with data or factual statements.
View attachment 99175

Hi,

As far as I understand, Fukuta now supplies some components inside the motors.

And I can refute your evidence right here.

First highlight is the motor for Roadster, which we all know.
What is implied is that Model S is still being made by Fukuta. Which is what you want to show with the second line you highlighted because it is year 2011.
But let's read into the nuances of the Chinese Language. It actually says: Collaborate on research to test the mass production of the core component of Model S. It may seem like it is implying that they are building it for TESLA for non native speakers, but the reality is different. Next time hire a native speaker well versed in business schenaningans to translate for you.

trils0n · Oct 25, 2015

The Monroney sticker that comes with every Model S says the motor is made in the USA. In addition to others who have seen the motors being made in Fremont, I've even seen them truing/balancing the rotors in the Fremont factory -- they do a lot in house.

EarlyAdopter · Oct 26, 2015

Avenger said:
Page two of the Fukuta catalog - Model S-

Lots of great products come from Taiwan. My point is Elon Musk is claiming Tesla Motors builds the motor - its clearly not the truth.

(View attachment 99168

- - - Updated - - -

Hello - if you would please refute any of the items in my blog post with data or factual statements.

Thanks for registering an account on here to post information from 4 to 8 years ago, out of context.

Where is your blog? Are comments open there? I'm sure many people here would be more than happy to refute there with factual information. Are you open to that?

ecarfan · Oct 26, 2015

Avenger said:
Page two of the Fukuta catalog - Model S-

Lots of great products come from Taiwan. My point is Elon Musk is claiming Tesla Motors builds the motor - its clearly not the truth

Except that hundreds and hundreds of people who have taken the Fremont factory tour this year, including me, have seen motors being built on an assembly line on the main floor of the building next to the vehicle assembly line.

JRP3 · Oct 27, 2015

EarlyAdopter said:
Thanks for registering an account on here to post information from 4 to 8 years ago, out of context.

Where is your blog? Are comments open there? I'm sure many people here would be more than happy to refute there with factual information. Are you open to that?

Referencing this post I'll assume the linked blog is "Avenger" http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/44146-Articles-re-Tesla%C2%97Fact-or-Fiction?p=1205213&viewfull=1#post1205213

PeterK · Oct 31, 2015

ecarfan said:
Except that hundreds and hundreds of people who have taken the Fremont factory tour this year, including me, have seen motors being built on an assembly line on the main floor of the building next to the vehicle assembly line.

And my nephew who was a mechanical engineer at Tesla from 2010-15 worked on Model S/X motors and their production tooling the entire time. He even appears in the National Geographic Megafactories video of the Fremont plant, using a small lift to move a motor on a lab bench. I saw the front motor production line when they were preparing for the D, though it was explained as for the X at the time.

AudubonB · Nov 5, 2015

For those who share my interest in pursuing exercises in frustration, here is Fukuta's website, in English: FUKUTA ELEC. & MACH. CO, LTD.

It provides very little information; through the murky filter of its English translation it suggests that it is a company that produces a variety of differently-wound motors for a variety of purposes. There is nothing to disprove that they cannot or do not provide motors for EV propulsion; there are, in fact, a few breadcrumbs that they may be doing that.

I find their name curious. It is not what, in my time-diminished command of Chinese language (Japanese is my forte), a Chinese name: it is Japanese. The company's full name 富田電機股份有限公司 (that may or may not show up on your browser) should be pronounced, I think, as something like Futian....if in Chinese. In Japanese, you would pronounce it either as Tomita or as Fukuta or as Fukuda.

Now, this may or may not be a result of the company desiring to appear global, or at least international, in nature. It certainly would not be the first time a Taiwanese or Chinese or Korean or Japanese company uses imaginative pronunciation in order to project internationality. Whatever that is.

Avenger · Nov 5, 2015

Tesla Motors are built by Fukuta. I suspect that Fukuta ships the sub-assembly sections to california. The Tesla Model S and Model X run thanks to Fukuta motors.

gene · Nov 5, 2015

Fukuta does not make Tesla motors. This was well debunked on another thread last week. I for one, and many more people have testified that we have seen Tesla making motors at the factory in Fremont. Even winding their own rotors.

Avenger · Nov 5, 2015

No - there was no compelling evidence.

GM doesn't wind EV Motors -http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/20/us-gm-bolt-lg-corp-idUSKCN0SE23320151020#Is64oBARpzqZ5pkl.97

China Steel Corp ( a publicly traded company) invested in privately held Fukuta, because Fukuta is the sole motor supplier for Tesla Motors.

see FinanzLinksASIA on Twitter:

See CSC financial report and search for Fukuta http://www.csc.com.tw/csc_e/ss/fin/table/fin_report103_Q5.pdf

China Steel denies interfering in Fukutaâ€™s operation - Taipei Times

::: ¸g¶T³zµøÂù©P¥Z¸ê°Tºô Trade Insight :::

The evidence that Fukuta builds the motors for Tesla Motors is overwhelming.

JRP3 · Nov 5, 2015

Actually the winding you saw is likely the stator. The rotor should be laminated copper, though I guess it could be wound copper.

chickensevil · Nov 5, 2015

Avenger said:
Tesla Motors are built by Fukuta. I suspect that Fukuta ships the sub-assembly sections to california. The Tesla Model S and Model X run thanks to Fukuta motors.

So the first picture is true, they have been making motors since 1988... so what?
Second picture also true, noone is saying they didn't produce motors for Tesla for the Roadster (which given the age on the article is the *only* thing that proves)
The third picture, not sure what you are trying to prove with this??? Yes, Tesla's motors had a minor hiccup on Norway cars... nothing in that article says anything about how Tesla got their motors from someone else...

Where is this "proof" that you speak of.

Fukuta supply role to Tesla

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