Dumb collision in my garage

redox · Oct 6, 2015

Today is not a good day for me (and my P85D!)... I had a collision in my garage that I don't actually understand the details of yet.

I pulled into my garage as usual, and slowed down as I got close to the "end wall" (where a door into the house is too). I have a laser pointing down from the ceiling that I use to know exactly where to stop.

Then I'm not sure what happened, but the car jumped forward, as if I had pressed the gas pedal.
My wife (and 22 month old daughter) had opened the door to welcome me, and says I had my foot on the brake because she saw the brake lights on, but I don't recall this myself. She says the car even came to a full stop and then leaped forward.

At any rate, the car jumped forward and hit the wall.

I have called Tesla to ask them to collect and preserve telemetry information to figure out what happened.
It is definitely possible that I somehow pressed the gas pedal by mistake (I'm not trying to avoid responsibility here), in which case I'm not sure why the collision avoidance system didn't kick in and prevent the collision to the wall from happening (it's a simple flat drywall with no particular challenges to detect). Do these not work at low speeds maybe?

At any rate, I won't know until I get info back from Tesla about the telemetry info analysis.

And now I'm off to the insurance roller coaster ride: I've called them and they gave me a body shop to go to for an estimate. Of course Tesla has a different list of approved body shops, but the insurance (Liberty Mutual) says I can get the repair at a body shop of my choosing, just not for the estimate.

It looks like the damage is limited to the front bumper + nosecone (those are the parts that touched the wall), but I don't know what else isn't visible. Airbags didn't deploy.

For those of you who have had to deal with this, is there a list of dos and don'ts? I suspect I don't have much of a choice but to go to a Tesla approved body shop?
Any suggestions?

Of course I am bummed, but I'm glad that nobody got hurt: my wife & daughter were just a couple of feet away from the collision point. They could have easily been "pinned to the wall".

Regards,

-- Greg

JER · Oct 6, 2015

Unless it's foil backed, drywall might not be detected by radar.

msnow · Oct 6, 2015

Found this from a previous poster regarding "collision avoidance".... Perhaps you had different expectations?

Tropopause | JUNE 14, 2015
GreyGhost1,
My understanding of the Model S systems, is there are basically three levels of protection with regards to frontal impact. According to the Owner's Manual, the Emergency Braking System will NOT stop the car completely, but rather reduce the speed by 25mph. What was your speed when the system engaged? I'm curious if your speed is 25mph (or less) will the car come to a complete stop by design? Also the manual describes a scenario which sounds like impact is inevitable and Emergency Braking merely reduces impact rather than avoid all-together. I'm just curious if the system functions as describe or not?
From the Owner's Manual:
1.) TACC- When a vehicle is detected, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is
designed to slow down Model S as needed to maintain a selected time-based distance from the vehicle in front, up to the set speed.
2.) Forward Collision Warning- If a collision is considered likely unless you take immediate corrective action, Forward Collision Warning is designed to provide visual and audible warnings. (Forward Collision Warning is designed only to provide visual and audible alerts. It does not attempt to apply the brakes or decelerate Model S. When seeing and/or hearing a warning, it is the driver's responsibility to immediately take appropriate action.)
3.) Automatic Emergency Braking- When a frontal collision is considered unavoidable, Automatic Emergency Braking is designed to automatically apply the brakes to reduce the impact. When Automatic Emergency Braking has reduced the driving speed by 40 km/h (25 mph), the brakes are released.
Note: For advance notice of an Automatic
Emergency Braking event, the Forward
Collision Warning setting must be turned on.
When on, you will hear a chime and see a
collision warning in the center of the
instrument panel if a collision is considered
likely. Then, if you do not take immediate
corrective action, a collision is considered
imminent and Automatic Emergency Braking
applies the brakes to reduce your driving
speed. Automatic Emergency Braking
activates whenever a collision is considered
inevitable, even if Forward Collision Warning
is turned off.

redox · Oct 6, 2015

msnow said:
Found this from a previous poster regarding "collision avoidance".... Perhaps you had different expectations?

That description is interesting indeed. Given that we're talking about 2 to 3 feet "jump" to hit the wall, I doubt the car got to reach a high speed. I don't even know if it can physically get to 25 MPH within such a short distance.
But yes my expectation was that it would stop short of the collision. I don't know if it's reasonable, but that's what I was hoping the system would accomplish.

-- Greg

- - - Updated - - -

JER said:
Unless it's foil backed, drywall might not be detected by radar.

I assume there's the radar (the low square close to the ground) and the ultrasound sensors (in the nosecone) that are used to "detect things ahead" (maybe even the camera?). Are you saying there needs to be metal to be detected?
Every other day when I pull into the garage I can tell the car "knows" the distance to the wall because it shows it on the dashboard as I get close. I don't know why it didn't pick it up this time, or if it did, why it did nothing about it.

-- Greg

taurusking · Oct 6, 2015

redox said:
I assume there's the radar (the low square close to the ground) and the ultrasound sensors (in the nosecone) that are used to "detect things ahead" (maybe even the camera?). Are you saying there needs to be metal to be detected?
Every other day when I pull into the garage I can tell the car "knows" the distance to the wall because it shows it on the dashboard as I get close. I don't know why it didn't pick it up this time, or if it did, why it did nothing about it.

-- Greg

I pull into my garage everyday and although it is a drywall the front sensors do detect it.. I don't have auto pilot but still front sensors do a good job

I am very cautious and turn off the cruise control before I pull in to the garage so I won't accidentally hit the stalk of cruise control.

Sorry Greg to know this happened...good luck and keep us posted as what Tesla says after looking at the data

eyespii · Oct 6, 2015

Just curious - creep mode on or off?

rcarpen22 · Oct 6, 2015

msnow said:
Found this from a previous poster regarding "collision avoidance".... Perhaps you had different expectations?

Tropopause | JUNE 14, 2015
GreyGhost1,
My understanding of the Model S systems, is there are basically three levels of protection with regards to frontal impact. According to the Owner's Manual, the Emergency Braking System will NOT stop the car completely, but rather reduce the speed by 25mph. What was your speed when the system engaged? I'm curious if your speed is 25mph (or less) will the car come to a complete stop by design? Also the manual describes a scenario which sounds like impact is inevitable and Emergency Braking merely reduces impact rather than avoid all-together. I'm just curious if the system functions as describe or not?
From the Owner's Manual:
1.) TACC- When a vehicle is detected, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is
designed to slow down Model S as needed to maintain a selected time-based distance from the vehicle in front, up to the set speed.
2.) Forward Collision Warning- If a collision is considered likely unless you take immediate corrective action, Forward Collision Warning is designed to provide visual and audible warnings. (Forward Collision Warning is designed only to provide visual and audible alerts. It does not attempt to apply the brakes or decelerate Model S. When seeing and/or hearing a warning, it is the driver's responsibility to immediately take appropriate action.)
3.) Automatic Emergency Braking- When a frontal collision is considered unavoidable, Automatic Emergency Braking is designed to automatically apply the brakes to reduce the impact. When Automatic Emergency Braking has reduced the driving speed by 40 km/h (25 mph), the brakes are released.
Note: For advance notice of an Automatic
Emergency Braking event, the Forward
Collision Warning setting must be turned on.
When on, you will hear a chime and see a
collision warning in the center of the
instrument panel if a collision is considered
likely. Then, if you do not take immediate
corrective action, a collision is considered
imminent and Automatic Emergency Braking
applies the brakes to reduce your driving
speed. Automatic Emergency Braking
activates whenever a collision is considered
inevitable, even if Forward Collision Warning
is turned off.

Regarding the red text above, that doesn't seem to square with this language found on the Model S website, which seems to indicate that the car will stop itself to avoid a collision:

Safety

Aware of its surroundings, Model S warns you when merging into an occupied lane or approaching a stopped car too quickly. In emergency conditions, Model S safely brings itself to a full stop.

green1 · Oct 6, 2015

AEB doesn't work at slow speeds, it's designed to reduce the force of an impact, not prevent a collision.

Most likely you touched the accelerator and the brake at the same time (brake first, then add accelerator) causing the leap.

Tesla will be able to tell from the logs.

redox · Oct 6, 2015

eyespii said:
Just curious - creep mode on or off?

Off.

- - - Updated - - -

green1 said:
AEB doesn't work at slow speeds, it's designed to reduce the force of an impact, not prevent a collision.

Most likely you touched the accelerator and the brake at the same time (brake first, then add accelerator) causing the leap.

Tesla will be able to tell from the logs.

Yes that is also what I'm thinking, as it explains my wife seeing the brake lights. As I get into the garage, the foot is usually on the brake pedal until I align the "laser marker" to the proper spot. My guess is as I got close to the "final resting" spot, I applied more pressure to the brakes to make it stop, but somehow I ended up pressing on the gas as well.

I wonder what the car does when it sees pressure on both pedals.

My wife claims the car came to a full stop before leaping forward, so maybe the foot slipped out of the brake pedal into the gas pedal. For some reason I can't remember exactly what happened with good enough detail. I'm still in a bit of a shock about it.

Like you said, things should get clearer once they tell me what they see in the logs.

I'd feel better if they can confirm that it was my mistake, rather than a dangerous bug out there in the open.

-- Greg

Half Dollar Bill · Oct 6, 2015

redox said:
I wonder what the car does when it sees pressure on both pedals.

You'll get an audible and visual warning when both pedals are depressed, even slightly.

JohnQ · Oct 6, 2015

I've double pressed and it's never resulted in a hard acceleration. More of a much slower braking action than I anticipated or a forced creep forward. But that's anecdotal as forces are different or a foot could slip off the brake pedal.

You definitely hear the chime when it happens, though.

green1 · Oct 6, 2015

Half Dollar Bill said:
You'll get an audible and visual warning when both pedals are depressed, even slightly.

Don't have my car yet, but my understanding was that it depends on the order, accel before brake I believe results in a power cut and warning, but brake before accel results it forward movement.

As for "leap" vs "creep", in tight spaces "creeping" forward often feels like "leaping"

Only Tesla will be able to say for sure what happened here.

Dwu0212 · Oct 6, 2015

rcarpen22 said:
Regarding the red text above, that doesn't seem to square with this language found on the Model S website, which seems to indicate that the car will stop itself to avoid a collision:

Safety
Aware of its surroundings, Model S warns you when merging into an occupied lane or approaching a stopped car too quickly. In emergency conditions, Model S safely brings itself to a full stop.

thats very interesting, I always thought it will come to a stop to avoid collision as well. So what model s website states might be another Tesla promise now, happen later function?

Andyw2100 · Oct 6, 2015

Is there any chance that you somehow engaged TACC, and the car was trying to accelerate to your last TACC speed setting, since there was no target car in front of it?

redox · Oct 6, 2015

Andyw2100 said:
Is there any chance that you somehow engaged TACC, and the car was trying to accelerate to your last TACC speed setting, since there was no target car in front of it?

I don't think so. I hardly ever use TACC - maybe used it a couple of times to "test it", and in this particular case my left hand was not fiddling with anything. Good hypothesis though.
I'm really eager to see what Tesla is going to report from the telemetry analysis. I did get a call from the SC telling me they were working on it and my case was escalated, so they wanted to make sure I had an update before the end of the day. That was nice.

My guess is that my foot somehow slipped from the brake to the accelerator before I had a chance to hit the Parking button with my right hand, prompting an acceleration over a couple of feet, and that the collision avoidance system didn't rescue me from my mistake for some reason that I can't explain (it's not a challenging setup, just a wall ahead of you @ 90 degrees - in fact every day the sensors tell me how many inches away the front is to the wall, so I know they can detect it easily).
For some reason I thought the avoidance algorithm would basically prevent any collision, "try as you might", a little bit like a video I saw online (maybe it was BMW) where they show the car that the driver is trying to run into stuff repeatedly and the car just won't let it happen. I was under the impression that Model S would react like that too (I never wanted to test that theory, but I guess now I have an answer).

-- Greg

Dborn · Oct 7, 2015

Can I suggest a better method? Either paint a line on the floor or use some other fixed point that you can see in the reversing camera, align it to the rear bumper bar, and you will always stop at the exact same point, without lasers, tennis balls, or anything else. Works for me perfectly.

msnow · Oct 7, 2015

Dborn said:
Can I suggest a better method? Either paint a line on the floor or use some other fixed point that you can see in the reversing camera, align it to the rear bumper bar, and you will always stop at the exact same point, without lasers, tennis balls, or anything else. Works for me perfectly.

i have a similar situation as the OP (drywall in front). I watch the dash as the sensors count down the distance 3', 2', 24"', etc...until it gets to 18" which is what I'm looking for then I push Park and exit. I've recently turned on the chimes as an added aid. I'll be very interested to find out what Tesla tells redox.

Seesaw · Oct 7, 2015

I'm not sure but I suspect AEB won't activate if you had come to a complete stop then start off again. Effectively you are overriding the system by pressing the accelerator (if you did) to start off again.

im sure that has been my experience with systems such as this.

digitaltim · Oct 7, 2015

I have had my Sig since '12 and I hit both pedals simultaneously at least once per week. It happens because I rest my heel in front of the brake and rotate my foot to the right to use the accelerator.

It has always complained with an alarm, rumbles a bit and has even moved forward - no lurching that I can recall.

redox · Oct 7, 2015

Dborn said:
Can I suggest a better method? Either paint a line on the floor or use some other fixed point that you can see in the reversing camera, align it to the rear bumper bar, and you will always stop at the exact same point, without lasers, tennis balls, or anything else. Works for me perfectly.

The laser method is actually perfect (I don't think it is an issue here at all) - it allows me to put the car within an inch (or half an inch actually) of the proper position every time, consistently. I know exactly where in the car it should land, so I can be accurate within an inch (less actually).
For example one of the lasers has to be on the glove box button. The other one in the center between the vents in the front of the dashboard (almost where it meets the windshield glass).

It's the best method I know (and I have done the tennis ball, drawn line, bump on the floor, etc methods before).

-- Greg

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