P90D Insane & P90D Ludicrous Traction Battery Stickers - Reveal & Questions

ArtInCT · Sep 3, 2015

Ok, went to my local Tesla Service Center this AM. Since yesterday, when there were 2 P90D non-ludicrous Model S's on the lot, this AM (probably arriving yesterday) the FIRST P90D Ludicrous arrived). So I got to thinking... lets see what is under the skateboard? Whipped out my trusty iPhone, got prone and snapped some pictures...

Lets start with the P90D Insane car.... NON LUDICROUS.... shall we?

Here is a picture of the window sticker...

And here is the main traction battery sticker... note the new battery enclosure... the enclosure is called the FLEX as I recall...

P90D Non Ludy battery sticker 9-3-15.jpg

Note the NON LUDY P90D's part number is 1063792-00-A

Now for the P90D LUDICROUS window sticker....

And as you might not expect... the P90D LUDY main traction battery sticker... it should be different than the P90D insane right?

Note ... humm... do my eyes deceive me? the part number is 1063792-00-A.
Same traction battery part number as on the P90D non-Ludicrous.

What can this mean to us?

Does the P90D Insane AND P90D Ludicrous have the same battery pack?
Appears so in this small sample.
Does this mean that the new advanced fuse system is in both the Insane and Ludicrous main traction packs?

Inquiring minds would like to know...

In the long run, does this mean that in the future, via a simple software upgrade a P90D Insane can become a P90D LUDICROUS?

Ohh the possibilities!

BTW, this is the first P90D LUDICROUS that I have seen on the East Coast. Sweet.
BTW both cars had the new rear chrome facia with the new very proud raise TESLA lettering and the upturned lens.

New Rear Chrome Facia with Proud Lettering.jpg

Here you can clearly see the UPTURNED lenses at the ends of the chrome facia.... this is new since Mid August....

FlasherZ · Sep 3, 2015

In another thread here, it was reported that a car delivered to a service center had been upgraded via software to ludicrous speed mode with no hardware changes.

emir-t · Sep 3, 2015

For all I know LUDY is achieved with a smart fuse that can take up to 1500amps without burning. That doesn't require a battery change. Discharge C rates for Model S cells while doing insane acceleration is roughly ~5C per cell anyway. Also those C rates are maintained for 30seconds to a minute at most. Let's do the math;

Dash indicates max power draw of 480kW while accelerating. (I know Pete90D extracted real data from his Ludicrous P90D and even that showed peak power of ~467kW if I'm not mistaken. However that could be power delivered to the motor after wiring losses instead of 'out the battery'. I'm not sure, doesn't change much for the point I'm making anyway)

Assuming full SoC, hence 403V pack voltage. That means around 1200Amps of power draw from the battery. (480000/403)

74 cells in a parallel group so 1200/74 = 16Amp draw per cell. Model S cells are about 3100mAh if I'm not wrong so 16/3,1=5.1C 5C is not that dramatic.

When announcing Ludicrous mode Tesla said this was achieved by making a smart fuse, "enabling" the battery pack to deliver 1500Amps. 1500/74= 20Amps per cell which is a 6.5C discharge rate, peak. As for why Ludicrous Tesla dashboards don't show ~600kW, (1500*403) beats me. The power usage dash could be off by very much to visualise things.

To come to the point despite my irrelevant seeming in calculations in retrospect, battery pack doesn't need to change for LUDY as we'll have retrofitted P85D LUDYs anyway. They only change the fuse, wiring of the battery to inverter to motor so it can handle the Amps and the heat.

As for

mgboyes · Sep 3, 2015

IMO it's highly likely that all 90kWh packs (even the ones in the 90D) have the upgraded fuse and contactor.

I bet you can get a P90D upgraded to a P90DL by software after delivery... but I bet they charge you more than $10k for the privilege.

joer00 · Sep 3, 2015

emir-t said:
For all I know LUDY is achieved with a smart fuse that can take up to 1500amps without burning. That doesn't require a battery change. Discharge C rates for Model S cells while doing insane acceleration is roughly ~5C per cell anyway. Also those C rates are maintained for 30seconds to a minute at most. Let's do the math;

Dash indicates max power draw of 480kW while accelerating. (I know Pete90D extracted real data from his Ludicrous P90D and even that showed peak power of ~467kW if I'm not mistaken. However that could be power delivered to the motor after wiring losses instead of 'out the battery'. I'm not sure, doesn't change much for the point I'm making anyway)

Assuming full SoC, hence 403V pack voltage. That means around 1200Amps of power draw from the battery. (480000/403)

74 cells in a parallel group so 1200/74 = 16Amp draw per cell. Model S cells are about 3100mAh if I'm not wrong so 16/3,1=5.1C 5C is not that dramatic.

When announcing Ludicrous mode Tesla said this was achieved by making a smart fuse, "enabling" the battery pack to deliver 1500Amps. 1500/74= 20Amps per cell which is a 6.5C discharge rate, peak. As for why Ludicrous Tesla dashboards don't show ~600kW, (1500*403) beats me. The power usage dash could be off by very much to visualise things.

To come to the point despite my irrelevant seeming in calculations in retrospect, battery pack doesn't need to change for LUDY as we'll have retrofitted P85D LUDYs anyway. They only change the fuse, wiring of the battery to inverter to motor so it can handle the Amps and the heat.

As for

You make the old mistake again of thinking that charging voltage is discharging voltage. The battery does not discharge at 403 Volts and at full draw there is a HUGE voltage drop, from what I remember on other posts it's in the range of 320 volts. 320 volts * 1300 for non ludicrous is 416 KW, pretty EXACTLY what we got from the API. 320 volts * 1500 ludicrous is 480 KW , again pretty exactly what we see from the screen/API.

The ludicrous does still NOT make the original advertised 691 HP for the P85D.

Regarding the fuse, I am pretty sure that this will be the standard fuse for ANY car. It does not make any sense for a car manufacturer to have multiple versions of one part unless it is an expensive one. The 10k is a joke, I doubt the fuse costs more than 1-200 $. Tesla just found another way to make money out of nothing. It's of course their right to do so (for NEW cars).

emir-t · Sep 3, 2015

joer00 said:
You make the old mistake again of thinking that charging voltage is discharging voltage. The battery does not discharge at 403 Volts and at full draw there is a HUGE voltage drop, from what I remember on other posts it's in the range of 320 volts. 320 volts * 1300 for non ludicrous is 416 KW, pretty EXACTLY what we got from the API. 320 volts * 1500 ludicrous is 480 KW , again pretty exactly what we see from the screen/API.The ludicrous does still NOT make the original advertised 691 HP for the P85D.Regarding the fuse, I am pretty sure that this will be the standard fuse for ANY car. It does not make any sense for a car manufacturer to have multiple versions of one part unless it is an expensive one. The 10k is a joke, I doubt the fuse costs more than 1-200 $. Tesla just found another way to make money out of nothing. It's of course their right to do so (for NEW cars).

Did not know that discharge voltage was that low. Thank you. I thought batteries were depleted when the pack is ~350V since that equates to about 3.6V per cell, which is the cutout voltage. I suppose 320V is only during that peak load for acceleration right? I remember a discharge graph someone tested with Model S cells and voltage came back up after the load was reduced to 3A after 10A. I think this is the same case.I like Tesla's current strategy btw. They're charging high for their top end features since people at that price range aren't that price sensitive anyway. So they lower the margin with entry models, giving us the value pack 70D.It makes sense from a production perspective too that Tesla is building all of the cars from now on with that smart fuse, unless parts costs more. It wouldn't make sense to put 1500Amp capable wiring into a 70D if a simpler fuse is cheaper.That being said, battery still doesn't need to change for all this.

WarpedOne · Sep 3, 2015

Batteries have internal resistance. It is relatively low compared to air so under now load there is higher voltage across terminals than when they are working i.e. Pushing high current.

mgboyes · Sep 4, 2015

emir-t said:
Did not know that discharge voltage was that low. Thank you. I thought batteries were depleted when the pack is ~350V since that equates to about 3.6V per cell, which is the cutout voltage.

The cutout voltage is much lower than that. The pack voltage on an empty battery (i.e. at supercharger at 0%) is about 320V.

ArtInCT · Sep 4, 2015

mgboyes said:
IMO it's highly likely that all 90kWh packs (even the ones in the 90D) have the upgraded fuse and contactor.

I bet you can get a P90D upgraded to a P90DL by software after delivery... but I bet they charge you more than $10k for the privilege.

I would agree with this idea. It is much less problematic to manufacture and especially inventory one version of the traction battery pack vs 2 or 3.

yobigd20 · Sep 4, 2015

mgboyes said:
IMO it's highly likely that all 90kWh packs (even the ones in the 90D) have the upgraded fuse and contactor.

I bet you can get a P90D upgraded to a P90DL by software after delivery... but I bet they charge you more than $10k for the privilege.

If I recall correctly Elon stated that the 90kWh packs have the upgraded fuse in place. so yes, it's merely a software switch to enable ludicrious mode.

kennybobby · Sep 4, 2015

Thanks for the label shots, looks like the same pack voltage @ 400 but with higher energy, so they probably went from ~2900 mAh cells to something like 3100 mAh.

What would also be interesting to see with the flex pack is what sort of provision there is for access covers for the new fuse and new contactors--maybe field-replaceable instead of sending the entire pack home?

It is still FM amazing at the amount of current passed thru those tiny fuse-wires on each cell--whoever designed that is an electrical genius.

Pete90D · Sep 4, 2015

ArtInCT said:
Ok, went to my local Tesla Service Center this AM. Since yesterday, when there were 2 P90D non-ludicrous Model S's on the lot, this AM (probably arriving yesterday) the FIRST P90D Ludicrous arrived). So I got to thinking... lets see what is under the skateboard? Whipped out my trusty iPhone, got prone and snapped some pictures...

Thanks for getting pictures of the pack Art! Mine was even more blocked than the one in the first photo and I kept forgetting to go crawl around under the car to move the liner out of the way.

joer00 said:
You make the old mistake again of thinking that charging voltage is discharging voltage. The battery does not discharge at 403 Volts and at full draw there is a HUGE voltage drop, from what I remember on other posts it's in the range of 320 volts. 320 volts * 1300 for non ludicrous is 416 KW, pretty EXACTLY what we got from the API. 320 volts * 1500 ludicrous is 480 KW , again pretty exactly what we see from the screen/API.

I need to start out giving a big warning on this data because I just analyzed this for the first time. There were a lot of odd numbers like voltage being 1000. The problem with the data I have is that streaming data is made available evert 250ms, but the REST data is not real time so even if you poll frequently there's a small delay. For this data I filtered out any odd data like voltage being over 400 or under 0 and I filtered out any regen and only combined records where the streaming timestamp was 250ms away from the time I got the REST data back.

I also don't know if this is a way to actually analyze this information, but since voltage came up I thought someone might be able to get something out of this data. If the fluctuation is strange then I can just throw out the data, but I'd appreciate it if someone could explain if the data is usable.

The data was calculated by correlating the kW returned by the streaming API to the battery_current returned by the REST API. It was on a steady drive where there wasn't a lot of power fluctuation.

P90D Drive Data: Power

As with the other graphs you can highlight sections and click on items in the legend to turn them on and off

emir-t · Sep 4, 2015

kennybobby said:
Thanks for the label shots, looks like the same pack voltage @ 400 but with higher energy, so they probably went from ~2900 mAh cells to something like 3100 mAh.

What would also be interesting to see with the flex pack is what sort of provision there is for access covers for the new fuse and new contactors--maybe field-replaceable instead of sending the entire pack home?

It is still FM amazing at the amount of current passed thru those tiny fuse-wires on each cell--whoever designed that is an electrical genius.

Huh? I thought even 2012 Model S A packs used 3100mAh cells.

For all of the 85kWh packs this is what I know, correct me if I'm wrong please;

3100mAh cells with 4.2V full SoC and 3.6V of cutout charge i.e. Empty battery.
74 cells in parallel, 6 of these parallel groups in a module and 16 modules. Hence 7104 cells.

Last time I checked we haven't found out how they got to 90kWh but for all I know measuring battery capacity is very sketchy. Assuming 3.8V as the nominal voltage vs 4V as nominal voltage makes a lot of difference. I've heard that the way to calculate real battery capacity is to calculate the integral from the discharge curve. However even that depends on the loads you put on the battery. Less load = more capacity.

So, for all we know, these now 90kWh cells could even be the same 3100mAh cells with a modified anode containing silicon (we know this) that allows lower cutout voltages, hence better capacity.

Advertising a battery capacity for EVs is very difficult. Not everyone will read Tesla Forums in depth. That's why we have problems with the dash showing percentage, rated miles, not being sure if you've lost range or the pack is not balanced etc. A lot more room for improvement overall.

I'd love if someone could educate me more on this subject. I'm astonished ever since I found out the 85kWh pack isn't really 85.

kennybobby · Sep 4, 2015

Here is probably the best test data available in the wild...
Tesla Model S 18650 Cell Test Data

i read these to be 2900 mah cells, discharging them down to 3.0V would be like a pack voltage of 288V, which is very low compared to what folks have reported when charging from empty, typically 320V.

i just used the pack label, 85kwh 400vdc, and took it at face value to get a nominal cell rating, which compares very favorably with the test data (2.89 vs 2.9 Ahr).

Regardless of the marketing and advertising claims for a 3300-3400 cell, or even a 3100 cell, you can't argue with actual test data--the proof is in the testing.

kennybobby · Sep 4, 2015

Pete90D said:
...
The data was calculated by correlating the kW returned by the streaming API to the battery_current returned by the REST API. It was on a steady drive where there wasn't a lot of power fluctuation.

P90D Drive Data: Power

As with the other graphs you can highlight sections and click on items in the legend to turn them on and off

Thanks Pete, that is some interesting data, looks like about a 3h16m trip at fairly even power, which makes sense on cruise control.

So you went 207.9 miles at 65mph set on TACC and used 317 wh/mile. It looks like about 20-24 kW average power over the trip.

It looks like some acceleration events at 1:34:59, 2:01:37, 2:41:08 which seemed to show reasonable voltage sag based upon current draw and high power. Maybe a regen event at 2:47:28, but the power and current didn't show as (-), although the voltage shot up to 400.

stopcrazypp · Sep 4, 2015

emir-t said:
Huh? I thought even 2012 Model S A packs used 3100mAh cells.

For all of the 85kWh packs this is what I know, correct me if I'm wrong please;

3100mAh cells with 4.2V full SoC and 3.6V of cutout charge i.e. Empty battery.

Nominal is rated at 3.6V, so actually 3300-3400mAh cells for the 85kWh pack. We initially guessed 3100mAh because that was what Tesla announced but the math does not support that.

Actual cutoff of Model S is nearer 320V or 3.33V per cell. However, you can't arbitrarily assign a higher nominal voltage based on a higher cutoff because that number is based on an integration of the full discharge curve that gave that mAh rating. A higher cutoff would mean a lower mAh rating; you can't reuse the older mAh rating.

Partial silicon anode would not boost nominal voltage, but would boost mAh. Tesla can get 90kWh from 3500mAh cells. That's why people guess Tesla is using something similar to Sanyo NCR18650GA which have partial silicon anode and are 3500mAh (keep in mind Panasonic owns Sanyo).

MrJones390 · Sep 4, 2015

I always thought Ludicrous' nickname was Luda

LUDY sounds weird to me

Pete90D · Sep 4, 2015

kennybobby said:
Thanks Pete, that is some interesting data, looks like about a 3h16m trip at fairly even power. Did you punch it a few times (e.g. to pass). What about slowing with regen--it doesn't look like you ever went into regen for the entire trip?

How many miles did you travel and what was your final range/miles/% etc whatever you use? It looks like about 20-24 kW average power used, so you were driving about 60 mph?

punch-it events at 1:34:59, 2:01:37, 2:41:08 seemed to show reasonable voltage sag based upon current draw and high power. Maybe a regen event at 2:47:28, but the power and current didn't show as (-), although the voltage shot up to 400.

The data about the drive can be found here
P90D Range Data

The graphs I showed above cut out all regen because screwed with numbers and I didn't know if that was normal or not. Even without trimming data, any power increase would primarily be from elevation changes. There were no cars to really pass and I had TACC on the 208 miles. Also this is going to be more spiky because it was matching streaming and rest responses that happened within the same 250ms, which dropped the record count a lot.

MarcG · Nov 11, 2015

Pete (and any other 90D/P90D owner): can you please take a clear photo of the full battery pack sticker? I'd like to see what the description at the very top states. For reference, here's my P85D's sticker with the "ASY,HV BATTERY,S3,DUAL MTR,MDLS" description at the top:

jerjozwik · Nov 23, 2015

this thread kinda puttered out. can anyone assist MarcG and in-turn myself?
im.. a month away from pulling the configuration trigger and i have longed for the P90DL since it was announced but really cannot justify the additional 10k at this time. but... it would be SUPER sweet to order a P90D now and in a few years buy the achievement unlock. [which i am well aware does not exist, but it makes me feel better imagining it might.]

P90D Insane & P90D Ludicrous Traction Battery Stickers - Reveal & Questions

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