Panasonic cells for Model S

[Eberhard]

Tesla has only one qualified Source for the 18650 cell, Panasonic.
The attached link gives more information for the current 2200mA cells as well as the new 18650A cells with 3100mA used for the 300miles pack

http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-...ACI4000CE2.pdf

[stopcrazypp]

Tesla has only one qualified Source for the 18650 cell, Panasonic.
The attached link gives more information for the current 2200mA cells as well as the new 18650A cells with 3100mA used for the 300miles pack

http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-...ACI4000CE2.pdf

How were you able to find that datasheet (what page linked to it)? This one is more informative than the "official" datasheets on the other parts of Panasonic's website because it actually goes to 500 cycles instead of just 300.

[Norbert]

My understanding was that Tesla will be using custom cells (from Panasonic) in the Model S, with different chemistry and topology, based on input from Tesla itself. I wouldn't expect data about these cells to be available on Panasonic's website.

[stopcrazypp]

My understanding was that Tesla will be using custom cells (from Panasonic) in the Model S, with different chemistry and topology, based on input from Tesla itself. I wouldn't expect data about these cells to be available on Panasonic's website.

Tesla is using cells with new chemistry (Panasonic calls it Nickel Oxide based New Platform or NNP), but they are still 18650s. A previous Tesla/Panasonic press release already revealed it will be 3.1Ah 18650 cells, which are obviously the NCR-18650A described in the document (it's the only 3.1Ah cell Panasonic makes and as far as I know also the only 3.1Ah cells made by any manufacturer).
http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/23/p...a-model-s-hav/

[Norbert]

Tesla is using cells with new chemistry (Panasonic calls it Nickel Oxide based New Platform or NNP), but they are still 18650s. A previous Tesla/Panasonic press release already revealed it will be 3.1Ah 18650 cells, which are obviously the NCR-18650A described in the document (it's the only 3.1Ah cell Panasonic makes and as far as I know also the only 3.1Ah cells made by any manufacturer).
http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/23/p...a-model-s-hav/

Yes, they use the 18650 format, but a proprietary (not just new) chemistry and internal geometry. Elon Musk described this in the Q4 2010 webcast available here (main section and a bit more in the Q&A):

Tesla - Events Presentations

The batteries in the Roadster are a standard 18650 variety, but the Model S batteries are heavily modified. My understanding is that they won't be available to other customers of Panasonic.

[Eberhard]

From the annual paper:

Panasonic
Panasonic is the supplier of cells for one of our current battery packs. In January 2010, we announced that we were collaborating with Panasonic on the development of next-generation electric vehicle cells based on the 18650 form factor and nickel-based lithium ion chemistry.

The charts shows for the 18650A cells a quite quick degradation within the first 300 cycles but then gets stable even beyond 500 cycle.

[tomanik]

Yes, they use the 18650 format, but a proprietary (not just new) chemistry and internal geometry. Elon Musk described this in the Q4 2010 webcast available here (main section and a bit more in the Q&A):

Tesla - Events Presentations

The batteries in the Roadster are a standard 18650 variety, but the Model S batteries are heavily modified. My understanding is that they won't be available to other customers of Panasonic.

So is this only 'true' for batteries in the 300 mile pack since it is being assumed the 3.1AH cell are only used in this pack? Meaning the 160 adn 230 mile packs are likely just existing roadster cells

[AndrewBissell]

I'm honestly not convinced there is a custom Tesla version of the Panasonic battery. My reading was that they input their requirements and suggestions strongly to Panasonic and that these had influenced Panasonic's design for the 3100mAh cells.

Does anyone have specific quotes to show otherwise? (Here's hoping....)

[Norbert]

I'm honestly not convinced there is a custom Tesla version of the Panasonic battery. My reading was that they input their requirements and suggestions strongly to Panasonic and that these had influenced Panasonic's design for the 3100mAh cells.

Does anyone have specific quotes to show otherwise? (Here's hoping....)

Did you follow the link to the webcast, and listen to Elon Musk's comments on the batteries, in his first section, and later in the Q&A session? The posted link to a transcript on that part isn't very readable and doesn't reflect very well what is said in the webcast, but it does include the word "proprietary". Why would Tesla use the term "proprietary"? (My interpretation is not just based on this one word, though.)

[stopcrazypp]

Besides from the webcast (which I haven't watched since it requires registering, so I'm not sure what exact quote points to custom cells for Tesla), the rest of the evidence points to high probability of the 160 & 230 packs using cells similar in capacity to the Roadster ones, and the 300 pack using the NCR-18650A. And the NCR-18650A certainly uses "proprietary" Panasonic technology: the aforementioned NNP, which gives them the highest energy density in the industry, and also a HRL (Heat Resistant Layer) for safety.

The press release I posted before confirms Tesla will be using NCR-18650A; unless they changed their minds recently. And the press release says Panasonic plans 300 million cells per year, so obviously it won't be exclusive to Tesla, since that's enough for 37,500 300 mile Model S's. Tesla might be able to get a contract to get exclusive use in terms of cars, but those cells definitely will also be used in the consumer electronics and laptop market.

Of course, so far we are just guessing the 160/230 packs will use ~2200mAh cells, but no details on what manufacturer (no press release so far, although for Roadster cells I've seen battery reports that says Sanyo is a confirmed supplier for the Roadster and Smart ed packs). It is possible those cells will be custom made for Tesla, since Tesla will use a lot more of those than the NCR-18650A (making the reasonable assumption the 300 mile Model S will sell a lot less than the other two). However, I'm fairly certain NCR-18650A will be used by Tesla.