No EV rebate on Model X if you're rich in California or live in Georgia

the cali one is still better than nothing, we don't get squat in alberta

Not a big deal. People who have $250K (or $500K) income probably do not need that $2500 to buy a car.

CarlK said:

Not a big deal. People who have $250K (or $500K) income probably do not need that $2500 to buy a car.

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Not a big deal? The concept that every Tesla owner is a millionaire is a problem. I drive 30k+ miles a year for business. There is no other EV that will work for me. By purchasing a Tesla, I'm essentially prepaying for $50k of fuel savings. Sure it's a great car but the price is high due to the savings over the next five years. Washington State just eliminated the sales tax savings for an EV if the purchase price is over $35k. That doesn't even cover most Nissan Leaf models. So much for eliminating C02 emissions and getting us off fossil fuels.

Not a big deal. People who have $250K (or $500K) income probably do not need that $2500 to buy a car.

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But making the cars affordable to people on the edge was not the original intent of the program. The point is to drive buying behavior. Of course there are always a few people on the edge that can't afford it without every incentive, but most people buying a PEV (any one, including the LEAF and Volt) have average incomes WAY above that required to be able to afford the car. No surprise there; most people that buy any new car are rich, but especially average-and-above new-technology cars.

Even rich people respond to incentives (mostly; there are exceptions to everything), much to the apparent consternation of many making less than them. It doesn't matter to our economy, national security, air or water quality whether the buyer is rich or poor. In fact, having rich people buy early EVs helps subsidize industry growth and price reductions for others. Right now those rich people tend to get a disproportionate amount of petroleum subsidies in their current vehicles.

That said, while capable EVs are worthy of public support, we don't have to include fully-loaded performance versions. So I do support caps on incentives - WA's unlimited sales tax waiver was definitely overdoing it by giving a $13k discount to loaded P85D buyers. I think a $35k soft cap (rather than the hard cap they implemented) would have been fine.

What's up with the preferential treatment for fool cells? Isn't Elon Musk California's largest employer? They have a strange way of showing their appreciation.

ChadS said:

But making the cars affordable to people on the edge was not the original intent of the program. The point is to drive buying behavior. Of course there are always a few people on the edge that can't afford it without every incentive, but most people buying a PEV (any one, including the LEAF and Volt) have average incomes WAY above that required to be able to afford the car. No surprise there; most people that buy any new car are rich, but especially average-and-above new-technology cars.

Even rich people respond to incentives (mostly; there are exceptions to everything), much to the apparent consternation of many making less than them. It doesn't matter to our economy, national security, air or water quality whether the buyer is rich or poor. In fact, having rich people buy early EVs helps subsidize industry growth and price reductions for others.

That said, while capable EVs are worthy of public support, we don't have to include fully-loaded performance versions. So I do support caps on incentives - WA's unlimited sales tax waiver was definitely overdoing it by giving a $13k discount to loaded P85D buyers. I think a $35k soft cap (rather than the hard cap they implemented) would have been fine.

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Well said. The incentives don't just provide a direct price break, they draw attention to something that might not have been looked at otherwise. I also think that just because a person has made some money it doesn't stop them from wanting to save some or not waste it-perhaps even the reverse.

MsElectric said:

What's up with the preferential treatment for fool cells? Isn't Elon Musk California's largest employer? They have a strange way of showing their appreciation.

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Yeah, that stinks too. Two major issues:

1. CARB is mostly concerned with local air quality. If that is the only issue you consider, H2 meets their narrow goals just about as well as EV. I hate silo'd government agencies that only care about a single issue rather than about what's best overall for the citizenry.

2. CARB is largely staffed by bureaucrats rather than environmental scientists. They get most of their information from the industry they regulate, in fact they have in the past often been hostile to information from the citizenry. It's easier for an automaker to sell H2 to dealers (their real customers) than EVs - dealers like cars that don't take a lot of explanation (H2 fueling is very similar to gas fueling, from the customer's perspective) and need plenty of maintenance.

Re-reading, that comes off as pretty harsh. I don't hate CARB; I think most people there are trying to do the right thing, and in some cases succeeding. But I think they are coming up with overly-complex legislation that often encourages the wrong thing, and I think the above two issues are the main reasons why.

Hugh Mannity said:

the cali one is still better than nothing, we don't get squat in alberta

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You have no PST (only 5% GST). In BC our PST goes from 7% to 10% on luxury vehicles. So while we get a $5k EV rebate, on a $100k Tesla we still pay $5k more in tax than you in Alberta, even after the rebate. I don't think there's any Province or State that pays more in tax on an EV vehicle, or any vehicle, than us in BC.

CarlK said:

Not a big deal. People who have $250K (or $500K) income probably do not need that $2500 to buy a car.

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Given that $2500 is only $35/mo over a 72 month loan probably not. But at the same time each location is different. As you know the Bay Area is very expensive with 2br townhouses selling for close to $1MM and rent being close to $4k for similar properties (outside of SF of course). $35/mo isn't a lot with those numbers, but I know a lot of people with good incomes that cut corners because every $35 adds up.

Georgia not only took away the rebate, but imposed a $200/year road tax since EV's don't pay tax at the pump. I appreciate the concept; however, the road tax system needs overhauling entirely. Back to the argument for effective public transportation in urban areas -- Atlanta is now a 12 lane wide parking lot during rush hour on 3 major interstate higways. The US lags most of the developed world in public transportation.

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but all the recent talk about reducing/eliminating oil subsidies sounds like a bait and switch if they are going to replace them with hydrogen subsidies. I'm sure all the oil companies are heavily investing in hydrogen right now...

Canuck said:

You have no PST (only 5% GST). In BC our PST goes from 7% to 10% on luxury vehicles. So while we get a $5k EV rebate, on a $100k Tesla we still pay $5k more in tax than you in Alberta, even after the rebate. I don't think there's any Province or State that pays more in tax on an EV vehicle, or any vehicle, than us in BC.

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Very well said. Plus Alberta is an oil economy province. Therefore any incentive to reduce oil consumption is not in the minds of the provincial government which derives some revenue from the oil industry.

Soolim said:

Very well said. Plus Alberta is an oil economy province. Therefore any incentive to reduce oil consumption is not in the minds of the provincial government which derives some revenue from the oil industry.

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good points, i used to live in ontario so am familiar with how high taxes can be on merchandise. regarding the government comment we are all hoping for some decent common sense thinking out of our new clan. notice i said "hoping", fingers crossed

Canuck said:

You have no PST (only 5% GST). In BC our PST goes from 7% to 10% on luxury vehicles. So while we get a $5k EV rebate, on a $100k Tesla we still pay $5k more in tax than you in Alberta, even after the rebate. I don't think there's any Province or State that pays more in tax on an EV vehicle, or any vehicle, than us in BC.

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13% HST in Ontario, although we do have an $8,500 rebate.

mknox said:

13% HST in Ontario, although we do have an $8,500 rebate.

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HST is the "Harmonized Sales Tax" being both PST and GST. Ours is 12% combined (7% PST plus 5% GST) but on luxury vehicle it is 15% combined because our PST goes to 10%. So it's 2% more than in Ontario, plus you have $3,500 extra rebate over our $5k.

Still I don't know of any jurisdiction in Canada or US that pays more.

Canuck said:

HST is the "Harmonized Sales Tax" being both PST and GST. Ours is 12% combined (7% PST plus 5% GST) but on luxury vehicle it is 15% combined because our PST goes to 10%. So it's 2% more than in Ontario, plus you have $3,500 extra rebate over our $5k.

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Yeah, I was just posting that for comparison. Does BC have the special "Air Conditioning" tax on new vehicles? We do, and it was supposed to have something to do with the additional fuel an a/c equipped vehicle uses, but in reality is just another tax grab. Had to pay that on my Tesla which doesn't even burn fuel in the first place.

O-G said:

Not a big deal? The concept that every Tesla owner is a millionaire is a problem. I drive 30k+ miles a year for business. There is no other EV that will work for me. By purchasing a Tesla, I'm essentially prepaying for $50k of fuel savings. Sure it's a great car but the price is high due to the savings over the next five years. Washington State just eliminated the sales tax savings for an EV if the purchase price is over $35k. That doesn't even cover most Nissan Leaf models. So much for eliminating C02 emissions and getting us off fossil fuels.

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I am noticing an increasing trend for states to feel like CO2 emissions reduction is not a state priority or mission (it is federal); so states are less inclined to give incentives or forego tax revenue to encourage EVs. States are generally not actually against EVs, they just have budget problems that are more immediate. Part of this is also the movement toward annual registrations fees for EVs to make up for lost fuel tax revenue.