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Excellent article about Tesla competitors
- Thread starter Grendal
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- Tesla Inc.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
SebastianR
Active Member
Yep, it is quite a sad state of affairs. I think the key point - as time progresses - is really the Supercharger network: just like in the beginning when cell-phones came to market or when the Apple App Store was new and not every app was available on Google Play, the network effects of the Superchargers draw a ton of customers. Of course, in 20 years, the advantage of the supercharger network may diminish but until we reach 1000 miles per charge (or something in this magnitude) having the network will be essential (and it is essential that it is free - not for price reasons but for convenience reasons: no need to change money / get your credit card out / worry about payment servers being offline etc. - you plug-in, it charges - easy as that).
In the other thread about toyota mirai someone mentioned they fuel cell cars look atractive because they sport similar use case as normal gas cars - filling stations.
People feel they will not have to change their usual habits.
SuperCharger network can and will fill similar, if not quite the same role for EVs:
- they will be all over the world, clearly marked and "advertised", at well known locations and reliable
- they may not come in same numbers as gas stations, but this will be mitigated with "you can also charge at home, you only need them on longer trips", there are also other charging places to "fill in the gaps"
- charging speed may not be quite the same as filling gas, but this will be mitigated with "it is free!"
People feel they will not have to change their usual habits.
SuperCharger network can and will fill similar, if not quite the same role for EVs:
- they will be all over the world, clearly marked and "advertised", at well known locations and reliable
- they may not come in same numbers as gas stations, but this will be mitigated with "you can also charge at home, you only need them on longer trips", there are also other charging places to "fill in the gaps"
- charging speed may not be quite the same as filling gas, but this will be mitigated with "it is free!"
I think this is one of the big challenges for EVs.
Get the word out to those with a reliable place to charge at night, just how convenient it is to have a full "tank" every morning.
The top two factors, I would guess, in the U.S. for car sales is price and convenience. Frankly, I think convenience beats out price for most people.
Lol, yeah, that's quite an advantage. Just think of all the times you miss carrying spare AAAs so your Motorola pager won't run out and go offline...
tstafford
Active Member
THIS!
Spot on with this comment. However it will be interesting to see what Tesla does with the asset of the network down the road. Licensing it to other manufacturers may prove very lucrative.
Seems pretty unlikely when Musk is already talking about sending note to frequent users. And there was some picture going around this weekend of a supercharger being completely filled up with 8 cars... now imagine what happens if they actually sell 500k in the near future. Have fun getting somewhere when there is a national holiday.
You can always find exceptions to the rule. One picture of a full supercharger station doesn't mean that is normal, nor widespread.
Also, Tesla is continuing to build these out. One stipulation for other companies joining in is that they help build out the additional chargers needed to support the cars they are adding.
I don't know that I'd use "licensing". More than anything Tesla wants manufacturers to buy into their model, so I'd expect it to be a minimum spec combined with a contribution based on number of cars.
The only way the network can _really_ work in the long term is to have lots of static storage, but that's something Tesla wants to have anyway.
SebastianR
Active Member
Na, immer langsam mit den jungen Pferden, da wollen wir die Kirche doch mal im Dorf lassen... You are making the exact same mistake that OP's article criticizes: you can't compare today's supercharger network with a potential future Tesla sales reality (or licensing reality). That's just like saying that competitor X in 2019 will have a super duper car that can match the 2012 Tesla Model S specs. So you would need to judge Supercharger congestion today against today's fleet of supercharger enabled cars - or - alternatively see what a future build-out network can do for a future number of sold cars.
Any future licensing deal will of course include an according investment into the network. The beautiful feature of a network however are vast economies of scale when it comes to covering the world. In other words, I'm not worried about overcrowded superchargers (adding stalls is comparatively trivial), I'm more interested in the fact, that a vast network with many partners is allowing "under-utilized" superchargers in the middle of nowhere.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
In some areas of California we are already experiencing queues at the SC stations.
I visited the SC in Gilroy, CA over the Holiday weekend and found all 16 stations occupied.
I visited the SC in Gilroy, CA over the Holiday weekend and found all 16 stations occupied.
"Free" was always a mistake; the people who installed the first parking meters could have told Elon that.
It looks like he's going to be opening the Superchargers up to other car manufacturers on a small *per hour* basis, which eliminates the vast overuse and queueing you get when something is "free".
It looks like he's going to be opening the Superchargers up to other car manufacturers on a small *per hour* basis, which eliminates the vast overuse and queueing you get when something is "free".
Why is that a problem? Even if cars are charging for an average of 45 minutes, that means a car is leaving every 3 minutes. People can wait for 3 minutes, or 6 minutes if there is another car waiting. It it's an average of 30 minutes charging, that's a car leaving every 2 minutes. People should expect they may have to wait a few minutes on a holiday weekend.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
Not a problem. Just an observation on heavy use over the Holiday weekend.
I was able to get a spot within 10 minutes and a full charge in about an hour.
It seems that the charging amperage/voltage dropped to 80A/330V with heavy usage... is this normal?
scottf200
Well-Known Member
So what happens when there are 2 or 3 or 4 cars waiting and a car pulls out of one of the chargers. Do you think those 4 people are going to do a first come first serve ... or first to get to that open slot gets it?!? Similar to drive up bank ATMs. If the 2, 3, or 4 people were queued physically or electronically then it would work much much better.
Lots of details about this elsewhere - at least if I am answering your question correctly.
Charging stations are all paired i.e. 2 of them hook up to the same device which actually produces the charge for the car. Each charger has a maximum power level, which it splits between its two connectors, based upon the ability of each car to accept the charge (which varies thru the charging cycle), and -if combined ability of two cars to accept charge exceeds the chargers ability to provide charge- who was there first. So if car 1 was there first and can accept electricity at a rate of 80, car 2 arrives and can also accept at a rate of 80 {the units can be confusing so I will not include} but the charger can only provide at 135, then it will give the first 80, and the second 135-80=55. Later, as car 1's ability to accept charge decreases, car 2's amount charge will increase up to its max, or the max the charger can provide, whichever is less.
Yes, its normal to see a decrease in the charging power. Tesla helps you avoid this by labelling the charges e.g. 1A and 1B. But, that only works up to the point where 1/2 the stations are occupied.
Krugerrand
Meow
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