Views on handling performance - p85d

I decided to test handling by taking the Novice autocross course in Minneapolis last month. I wanted to try things out in a safe place, with Smart People at my side. It was a) a blast and b) very helpful for learning what my limits are. Several instructors drove my car during the day, and I think the consensus is that the car does very well for a near-5000 pound car. Acceleration and brakes are fine, cornering is pretty good given that the traction-control is always on. It felt very forgiving to me as a novice driver -- I never felt like I reached the limits of the car, only my limits as a driver.

bp1000 said:

So is the weight noticeable or is it a bit mystical through the bends relative to its insane staight line performance.

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I'm not sure there is a distant second performance characteristic, to its acceleration. And I'm not trying to flatter the acceleration. It has the fundamentals to be a great handling car, but you currently get more of a comfy padded cell, once you turn the wheel. If you plan on accelerating off turns, there is a point before tire squeal, traction loss, or stability control, where the P85D shuts down. Personally, I don't mind the softer settings because this car doesn't roll as bad as high roll-center Audi, or BMW, to begin with. It's somebody, at Tesla, deciding the lowest common denominator is "P".

When comparing my P85D to my 2004 911 Turbo S Cab, the Porsche handles way better, but obviously loses in the acceleration department. My P85D apparently no longer has the sport suspension though. Of course the 911 is about 1500lb lighter...

kirkbauer said:

When comparing my P85D to my 2004 911 Turbo S Cab, the Porsche handles way better, but obviously loses in the acceleration department. My P85D apparently no longer has the sport suspension though. Of course the 911 is about 1500lb lighter...

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part of me is annoyed at the loss of P distinct suspension, yet part of me does not want racetrack coilovers on my future GT car...

but it is REALLY hard to justify the 20k is its only a 1 sec acceleration improvement and... not much else.

jerjozwik said:

part of me is annoyed at the loss of P distinct suspension, yet part of me does not want racetrack coilovers on my future GT car...

but it is REALLY hard to justify the 20k is its only a 1 sec acceleration improvement and... not much else.

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Totally agree

ahurst said:

Totally agree

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:crying:
when i got the notification someone posted i was hoping for a rebuttle saying oh the p85d has x number of different things.

sad panda. ill probably still go forward with the origonal plan since we have 85D money already alocated, so i have the rest of the year to make up the difference. i dont think ill be in the same position of being able to afford such a rediculous car in the future...

jerjozwik said:

:crying:
when i got the notification someone posted i was hoping for a rebuttle saying oh the p85d has x number of different things.

sad panda. ill probably still go forward with the origonal plan since we have 85D money already alocated, so i have the rest of the year to make up the difference. i dont think ill be in the same position of being able to afford such a rediculous car in the future...

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I try to come out of corners fast in my P85 and the rear end wants to slide so you need to wait for it to hook up. A P85D probably hauls ass out of corners with the front end pulling too. +
I could use this, especially when it is wet. Trying to launch around a corner in rain is very hard in a RWD only (although I imagine an 85D would hook up too...but an S85 was so boring/weak in low end compared to P85 and I'd imagine even more an 85D vs P85D)
so do it if you can afford it. I couldn't afford my car but am so glad I got it!

But the handling of P85D compared to other flavors I really am curious about. P85D is heavier so a 70D might be the best for handling? dunno.
I would love to run autocross against some D's.

Zextraterrestrial said:

A P85D probably hauls ass out of corners with the front end pulling too.

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I think the jury is out on that. There's a big difference between getting some extra pep out of a sweeper, and going fast enough that the "rear end wants to slide". It may be a different sensor preventing things, but I've never driven another car where a straightened steering could mean so much extra power?

I noticed that the skidpad g rating went up slightly with the 2013 models. I believe it is .91 now where the initial release cars were .86 !

Some fundamental benefits of electric also come to play... the battery weight creating a broad and low center of gravity lets you feel that the car doesn't want to roll. The instant access to power as you come out of a turn makes the car 'feel' lighter. For contrast, I had the Maserati Coupe out the other day, and felt like it had to work much harder to get the performance levels I was after.

The P85+ is superb in keeping controlled through bends. The P85D meets that level then the grip/launch of all wheel drive rockets you out of each twist which is superb. Losing grip, and having traction kick in is an issue-- so of course replacing tires with condition appropriate tires is quite useful. I put Pilot Super Sport on my P85D, and the extra grip is noticeable. Tesla needs to be mindful of energy consumption, so these may not ever be std operating equipment.

On the P85+ I saw mid 400s lifetime power consumption, on older Pilot Sport 2 tires. FWIW, I use lighter wheels on the P85D with PSS tires on them, and have not mapped a decrease in efficiency in light of the better grip. Might be something to consider when your Tesla arrives... plan to swap the factory set back on when the seasons change.

The weight is noticeable when you really push it. I have the pre April P85D with the much stiffer suspension. Doesn't handle as well as small lighter cars I've had with softer suspension. Doesn't handle as well as an older stock 300ZX Twin Turbo or a Corvette C5 with Z51 both of which have a much softer and compliant suspension for the street.

That said, it handles better than any 5000 lb car should ever be able to. In the handling department I only have one complaint. If the road is slightly bumpy, the car well tend to slip out on corners because the suspension can't react faster enough to the wheel going over a bump so the bump tends to launch the car off the ground just a tiny bit.

That said, on smooth roads, it's pretty amazing for a car this huge and heavy. It almost defies the laws of physics.

Per Sorka: "If the road is slightly bumpy, the car well tend to slip out on corners because the suspension can't react faster enough to the wheel going over a bump so the bump tends to launch the car off the ground just a tiny bit."

I agree. I have a P85+ and have found this. After having AWD for so many years, it is now something I need to watch out for. But I do love the feeling and it self corrects very quickly without drama. Unfortunately, living in CA, we don't experience wet roads anymore. So I have had no good chance, since taking delivery 9-29-14, to really test her out in the wet. Perhaps that will change one day...

But one big plus is that I practically never have to wash the car!!!

I probably should have mentioned I've had a P85+ loaner before and it's suspension was far more compliant than the my PD. However, it tended to want to spin rear wheels coming out of corners while the P85D's front pulls you out of the corner. Totally different experience. Would love to have the same suspension feel on the P85D as I did on the P85+.

I have yet to take our 85d to the limit. Standard 19" wheels for now.

That said, I did drive it at Refuel's Laguna Seca event. It's a huge car and there's no denying that. Grip feels good, and you can feel some lateral movement through hard turns with the awd. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the 85d tends SLGHTLY towards understeer in hard cornering, but the awd traction makes it not feel like a problem at all. Overall it's very balanced, and I feel that if I did take it to the point of losing traction completely it would slide laterally sideways and forwards... that's just my gut feeling not sure if it's true. Coming out of corners where I didn't set up a nice late apex, I wasn't always confident in my traction but hitting the accelerator seemed to iron out any wrinkles and do its torque-vectoring black magic to iron out excessive lateral g's. This was exactly one week into owning the car so I was extremely conservative.

Has anybody here taken it to the limit? Spun it? That's who I want to hear from about handling.


also, there's some body roll but not too much.

sorka said:

The weight is noticeable when you really push it. I have the pre April P85D with the much stiffer suspension. Doesn't handle as well as small lighter cars I've had with softer suspension. Doesn't handle as well as an older stock 300ZX Twin Turbo or a Corvette C5 with Z51 both of which have a much softer and compliant suspension for the street.

That said, it handles better than any 5000 lb car should ever be able to. In the handling department I only have one complaint. If the road is slightly bumpy, the car well tend to slip out on corners because the suspension can't react faster enough to the wheel going over a bump so the bump tends to launch the car off the ground just a tiny bit.

That said, on smooth roads, it's pretty amazing for a car this huge and heavy. It almost defies the laws of physics.

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It is all about tire patch.
If you could eliminate/balance all the suspension tuning and tire compound issues you would be left with sprung & unsprung weight on the tire patch.
That is, given the weight on each tire and factoring in the tire patch it would require 315 wide tires all around for the MS to corner like a 4000 lb. car with 245 wide tires.
That is why when it come to cornering the vehicle mass becomes the limiting factor.
Could you imagine a MS with 305/30ZR20's all around.
It may look cool but the mi/Wh would be through the roof.

tkizzy said:

Has anybody here taken it to the limit? Spun it? That's who I want to hear from about handling.

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I'm still getting paperwork to use the P85D, so not much more than brief local drives. I've been with the Porsche club for many years, tracks, instructing, etc. It doesn't mean I'm Mario Andretti, but on a sharp right going wide at a minimal 30mph, I find I only have about ~100hp in the P85D coming out. Yes, I use both lanes and can see for about a half mile, all directions. With my right foot in the same place since the corner, the power suddenly comes back, but only once the turning it basically done. There's nothing linear about it. I plan to address it with Tesla, and until then am following others feedback. My guess (hope?) is the condition may be limited to lower speed, tight steering angle situations. What's sad is that, with minimal experience, most know they can put down more power as they leave a turn, but then you don't get it as though the P85D has a crude piece of TC programming?

I have a candle lit for a "TC Off" update in the P85D, if anyone hasn't noticed.

3mp_kwh said:

...I have a candle lit for a "TC Off" update in the P85D, if anyone hasn't noticed.

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:smile:

this is what I was wondering. so it seems you cant really push a P85D (safety? should be the owners responsibility) I think you can spin a p85 if you try hard enough but it does prefer to get into a balanced sideways slide where Stability will keep you sliding flat..unless you go too hard..and maybe touch some slippery - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCA_FZB_TQw would love to see a p85d on this kart track! ..come on Oregonians / norcalis

When pushed the P85D understeers, its disappointing. I would prefer it to be closer to neutral. Some of this can be fixed with lower ride height and camber, but part of the problem is power delivery.

3mp_kwh said:

With my right foot in the same place since the corner, the power suddenly comes back, but only once the turning it basically done. There's nothing linear about it.

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100% agree, power is noticeably limited in a corner and comes roaring back once the wheel is straight. This is absolutely fine for normal daily driving. But the software needs a 'Sport Traction' mode to give the driver more corner power. In my opinion, the P85D would not be fun on a track with the significant power limitations during cornering.

ERP said:

In my opinion, the P85D would not be fun on a track with the significant power limitations during cornering.

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and about 3/4th the way through a long lap.