Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase ?

[Eberhard]

with the upcoming need of high-power-charging, 3-phase power is already available in America and will be offered to all customers. the three phase, 4 wire, 480 wye/277 volts will be supported for the Model S. And this is 3-Phase

1. Single-phase, 120/240 volt service is limited to 50 kVA maximum where utilization equipment includes individual motors not over 6-1/2 HP. Self-contained meter socket applications are limited
to 72kW demand. 2. Where the present service is three phase, 4 wire, 208 wye/120 volts. Exception: In Network areas
where standard service voltage is three-phase, 4 wire, 208 wye/120 volts, demand for single-phase service 120/208 volts is not to exceed either (a) 60 kVA for the Upstate New York area or (b) 20 kVA for the areas in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Rhode Island.
3. Where the present service is three phase, 4 wire, 480 wye/277 volts. Three-phase, 4 wire, 480 wye/277 volts is Commercial and Industrial use only.
4. Where supplied by cluster mounted overhead transformers at the Company's discretion; see Section 9.2.1. Demand of 150kVA or more is generally preferred to be supplied by a pad mounted transformer service. Three-phase service normally will not be made available for a residence.
5. With the exception of network service, transformer vault services are limited to 1500 kVA at 480 wye/277 volts.
For both new applicants and existing customers, the Applicant or Customer shall submit a written request that includes its proposed in-service date, connected load, diversified demand, and load factor information. Refer to the “Process and Information” section at the beginning of this book. Customers having the potential to exceed 75 kVA of transformer capacity may be required to supply space for electrical equipment on private property in accordance with the Company’s Terms and Conditions; see Sections 4 and 9. Where three-phase secondary service is requested and available and the minimum Customer load is less than 50 kVA, the Customer may be required to contribute to the supply facilities’ installation cost according to the Company’s tariff in the specific service area.
3.7.2 New Customers (Applicants)
The delivery voltage for service to a new Customer is determined based on engineering considerations such as system loading, location of electric supplies, reliability, circuit protection and coordination, planning, operation and maintenance.
3.7.3 Existing Customers
3.7.3.1 Customer Expansion
The new delivery voltage for service to an existing Customer contemplating an expansion that will result in a maximum customer peak demand greater than the limit specified in Table 3.7.1-1, is determined based
38 For the latest authorized version, please refer to the company’s website at http://www.nationalgridus.com/electricalspecifications.
National Grid / Specification for Electrical Installations / April 2010

[TEG]

...3-phase power is already available in America and will be offered to all customers...

I am a little baffled by this quote or comment. I don't think "all customers" (e.g.: USA residential) are going to be offered 3 phase power.
In the USA it isn't typically brought into residential areas at all.

Also, your posting doesn't mention that it is just a cut & paste of someone else's document.

It seems it is page 42 from here:
http://www.nationalgridus.com/non_ht...on_greenbk.pdf

[Eberhard]

That right. its exactly what all american customers is being offered. There is a big need to upgrade the old inefficient low-volt one-phase power-grid to the more efficient 3-phase high-volt smart grid, which is using much less expensive copper.

[doug]

I'm all for a move to 3-phase as the US grid get upgraded.

However, be sure to use the [quote] tags to indicate material taken from another source.

[TEG]

That right. its exactly what all american customers is being offered...

I am still a bit confused by these statements. How are all American customers being offered 3-phase now? I think if I call my power company and ask for 3-phase to my house they would say it is not available there, or quote me some astronomical figure to run special power lines to my neighborhood. Is there some regulation or law in the works to require power companies to start bringing 3-phase into all locations? I was not aware that anything was happening in this regard. I thought we would continue to get split phase 240V (120V*2) for most residences for the foreseeable future.

http://www.powerphase.us/distributio...erintheusa.htm

...Getting distribution of three phase power in the USA connected to your home or business can be ridiculously expensive or virtually impossible...

...The utility companies have been know to charge sums of $50,000 up to $90,000 per mile just to give you distribution of three phase power in the USA. ...

http://www.physicsforums.com/archive.../t-125089.html

http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...-happend/page3

[Eberhard]

Your problems is not, that your grid cannot do it, they already do it. your problem is, that your power-companies want to make profit out of it by blackmailing those who are in need for 3-phase. There is more cost involved with your split-phase 110/220V as with 280/480V. But first is the must, second the option.

[TEG]

I don't know the reasons, but I think it is true that the power companies in the USA tend to be slow to upgrade.
Maybe it is bureaucratic, or financially motivated... I don't know.
Here is one old article about "old grid" in the USA:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...rid-usat_x.htm

I think if you asked the average person "do you want to spend tax $ or increase your power bill to get 3-phase" the answer would probably be "no".
At the moment there seems to be only a small minority that would want it.
The current system is adequate for overnight charging of a typical EV now. What applications do home customers have that really needs 3-phase?

[Eberhard]

Hi TEG, in Germany any electric oven is 3-phase connected. for me its a problem, we do not have higher current support (max 64A) at 230/400V but 3 Phase. But this may be important for public charging as well and makes the balancing easier.

[TEG]

In USA, things like electric oven, hot tub heater, and electric clothes dryer are typically like single phase 240V@<50amps.
The clothes dryer gets hot enough compared to gas, and electric oven warms up quickly enough so there are limited complaints.
So, I don't see a strong pull to request 3-phase. Unless you are running industrial equipment, I think the only really desirable application would be quicker EV charging, but we can already fill up existing EV's overnight. Perhaps someday when 100kWh+ packs for 300+ mile range EVs are more common, and people want to use them for very long commutes then there will be a request for more more current to residential locations. But for now, I don't think there is a strong request.

[PaulM]

There is a big need to upgrade the old inefficient low-volt one-phase power-grid to the more efficient 3-phase high-volt smart grid, which is using much less expensive copper.

I really don't understand why there is a "big need to upgrade..." and I've never heard that there is any interest to "upgrade", neither from the power company nor from the clients. I live in a recently developed neighborhood that doesn't have access to natural-gas. I have a 200A - 240V (48kW) service which is more than sufficient to meet all my electrical requirements including heating my 3000 ft2 (279 m2) house. In my province (Quebec Canada) it is quite common to heat using cheap hydro power. There is no efficiency to be gained by bringing three phase power into the homes and I can't see electric cars having any impact on this. Clipper creek sells split phase 240v EVSEs from 5.8kw to 19.2 kW. It is great that three phase is common in homes in Europe but I don't see it EVER being implemented in North-America. From what I've read on this forum, most Roadster owners realize that there is no need to charge at more than 8 KW overnight anyway. The only time you need higher power is for roadside quick charges.