CARB and Tesla

tonybelding · Jun 15, 2015

It seems like when CARB and the ZEV mandate come up, there's often a footnote about CARB throwing some sort of obstacle in Tesla's way, or giving competing companies or technologies a leg up on them. They gave more ZEV credits to hydrogen cars than BEVs, which I've yet to hear any rational explanation for. They eased the ZEV requirements on "smaller" manufacturers, like Mazda, which are actually much bigger than Tesla. They threatened to effectively kick Tesla out of the program by putting a $60,000 cap on BEVs that would qualify.

It seems strange to me, looking on from afar. I would have imagined a love-fest between CARB and Tesla. A new company with both HQ and manufacturing in California making nothing but BEVs? What could be better? Yet, it seems as though CARB have only disdain as they see Tesla going off-script and doing their own thing. "This is not what we ordered! This wasn't part of our plan!"

What am I missing here?

electracity · Jun 15, 2015

I think Toyota has a large and long relationship in Cali. I think CARB and many politicians want to keep hydrogen "in the game" until 2020ish. To say that Tesla doesn't have major political capital in California is not correct.
To date Prius has reduced emissions far more than Tesla in California. The blue Prius is apparently even the official state mascot.

trils0n · Jun 15, 2015

Established industry has, at least partially, co-opted CARB, as happens to many regulatory agencies. They don't necessarily share the same vision of the future.

PeterK · Jun 15, 2015

Yes I think a lot of this is politics and lobbying by the established players. There's also likely some negative feeling about Tesla's price range from the populist view, and about the emphasis on looks and performance from the hard-core environmentalist view.

Killroy · Jun 15, 2015

I'm new here and I'm searching for what Tesla is selling ZEV Credits for these days and how much or how little battery swap has effected that.

I understand that ZEV Credits are lowering in market value since other automakers are selling their own EVs. What percentage of Tesla ZEV credits get sold?

There seems to be a lot of speculation in the news and I see "Tesla gets $25,000 for each battery swap".

Thanks.

apacheguy · Jun 15, 2015

FWIW, CARB chair drives a Tesla.

omgwtfbyobbq · Jun 15, 2015

I think CARB just provides more in the way of credits to stimulate more R&D. Back when EVs were first coming out, HEVs only had a credit of .6, while EVs had a credit of 1.25.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/factsheets/zev_tutorial.pdf

The $60k cap is likely so more lower income individuals can take advantage of the rebate.

ggr · Jun 16, 2015

omgwtfbyobbq said:
The $60k cap is likely so more lower income individuals can take advantage of the rebate.

Sorry, I don't understand. CARB has nothing to do with rebates to anyone.

apacheguy · Jun 16, 2015

CARB funds the CVRP so yes they do.

trils0n · Jun 16, 2015

apacheguy said:
CARB funds the CVRP so yes they do.

Think ggr was talking about ZEV credits not being related to the 60k cap for CA rebate. Seems like a few posters are conflating the proposed $60k purchase price limit for the CA rebate on purchasing an electric car with the ZEV credit system.

The rebate goes to the purchaser of the car (customer). The ZEV credit program involves sales of credits between automakers (no state money goes to any automaker from this program).

stopcrazypp · Jun 16, 2015

A lot of the time it is industry alliances lobbying CARB jointly (or if not jointly they have similar goals: reduce ZEV mandate requirements as much as possible). Tesla's really the only one benefiting from stricter ZEV mandates (because they make EVs exclusively). Nissan is the other one perhaps, but I don't believe they are selling their credits so they are likely a neutral party (they don't really want the ZEV mandate to increase, but they don't need it reduced either).

TEG · Jun 16, 2015

Some related articles:

Tesla's ZEV credit allotment changing under new CARB rules

CARB ZEV Program Changes; Tesla Takes Largest Hit, Fuel Cell Tech Wins

Analysis: Tesla may have made over $100 million off the CARB enabled battery swap ZEV credit scheme | Watts Up With That?
(Article estimated credits could be sold for about $4K each over a year ago... It suggests each model S could 'earn' between 4 and 7 credits per sale.)

Doubting is thinking: CARB says "Tesla has not submitted data on battery swap events" and may not do so until May 2016!

Zero Emission Vehicle Credits

CARB Member's, Tesla's Comments, Highlight Rift Over How Best To Clean California's Air | Best Ride Midnight Oil Auto Blog

Why Is Tesla Silent On The Good ZEV News? - Tesla Motors (NASDAQ:TSLA) | Seeking Alpha

- - - Updated - - -

stopcrazypp said:
...Nissan is the other one perhaps, but I don't believe they are selling their credits...

Apparently they have been...

[URL="https://transportevolved.com/2014/10/23/nissan-tesla-made-california-zev-credit-sales-last-year/"]NISSAN, NOT TESLA, MADE MOST FROM CALIFORNIA ZEV CREDITS SALES LAST YEAR
[/URL]
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ns-tesla-selling-california-green-car-credits

http://insideevs.com/nissan-starts-...essure-on-tesla-profits-and-ev-market-itself/

omgwtfbyobbq · Jun 16, 2015

ggr said:
Sorry, I don't understand. CARB has nothing to do with rebates to anyone.

Like apacheguy said, they fund the CVRP. Given the same funding, fewer rebates for expensive ($60k+ per the OP) EVs translates (1:1) into more rebates for (relatively) inexpensive EVs. This would make the program more accessible to lower income participants, especially given other incentives that just started up in the South Coast and Valley Air districts.

Having said that, trils0n brings up an interesting point. If Tesla wasn't generating ZEV credits, then it's plausible that manufacturers as a whole wouldn't be banking ZEV credits and would need to pay a little less than $5k per debit(?) to CARB. Whether or not those funds would make their way into CVRP funding is another matter entirely. I'm not sure how CARB's budget is structured, but it's possible that Tesla providing credits for other manufacturers reduces fees those manufacturers would pay and reduces the funding for CARB projects, including CVRP.

Killroy · Jun 17, 2015

TEG said:
Some related articles:

Analysis: Tesla may have made over $100 million off the CARB enabled battery swap ZEV credit scheme | Watts Up With That?
(Article estimated credits could be sold for about $4K each over a year ago... It suggests each model S could 'earn' between 4 and 7 credits per sale.)

I still don't see how Tesla would get any more 5 credits if battery swap qualified for fast charging, since the Model S is not > 300 mile range.

miimura · Jun 17, 2015

Killroy said:
I still don't see how Tesla would get any more 5 credits if battery swap qualified for fast charging, since the Model S is not > 300 mile range.

The range figures used in the CARB tiers are from LA5, or maybe even more generous test cycles, so a Model S 85 is definitely in the 300 mile tier. Almost all the "city cars" like Leaf, Focus, 500e, e-Golf, etc. are all in the 100 mile tier, even though they all have 80-something mile EPA range.

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CARB and Tesla

tonybelding

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trils0n

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Killroy

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