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There's a huge education problem here. People have to realize that gasoline cars also have a "long tailpipe." Huge amounts of energy are used in refining, not to mention pumping it out of the ground, shipping the crude to the refinery and the gasoline to the customer. The CO2 emissions from that no doubt are greater than those for an electric car, not even counting the CO2 coming out of the tail pipe.
Yeah, the regulation should consider all "upstream emissions" for all types of vehicles, not just for EVs.
shark2k
Member
Submitted this comment on the original blog:
If they do this (and there is some merit to it) then:
1. gas vehicles must also be made to account for the upstream emissions of hydrocarbon fuel production - current miles per gallon and CO2 emission figures for gas cars do NOT include these. Depending on the source of the oil and the route to refining these upstream emissions for gas can be very substantial - for tar-sand oil these can double the CO2 emissions (making a Prius emit over 300g CO2/mile when the well to pump emissions are combined with pump to wheels).
2. It had best be done at the level of the regional/national electric grid: your electricity can't be assigned to just your local power plants when they are on a larger grid with power flowing all over the place to meet demands - you need to uses the average CO2 per kWh of all the generators on the whole grid; equally you can't treat the whole US as one place as it doesn't have a true national grid - it has at least three major ones (West, Central and East) - so the average grid CO2 intensity has to be calculated for each grid area. So in the US this would mean three separate vehicle sticker emissions numbers for the three separate grid areas; in Europe a different CO2 emissions number for each of the 26 EU countries. Competition and single market regulators may take a dim view of this - but the alternative of pretending that there is a US-wide or EU-wide single average emissions number that is physically meaningful should be resisted.
3. In calculating the upstream emissions for the EVs, attention should be paid to the time of day that EVs are charged. In general EVs charge at night. Hour-by-hour statistics for the UK national grid indicate that carbon intensity are typically 1/3 lower at night. So let's be sure that the upstream emissions are calculated with a weighting to a fair view of when the bulk of vehicles charge.
4. Given that most regulators allow electricity companies to sell "green" electricity that is sourced from wind, solar, etc, there should be provision on any EV sticker to state "zero emissions if powered by a green tariff electricity supply (or your own zero carbon generation)."
If they do this (and there is some merit to it) then:
1. gas vehicles must also be made to account for the upstream emissions of hydrocarbon fuel production - current miles per gallon and CO2 emission figures for gas cars do NOT include these. Depending on the source of the oil and the route to refining these upstream emissions for gas can be very substantial - for tar-sand oil these can double the CO2 emissions (making a Prius emit over 300g CO2/mile when the well to pump emissions are combined with pump to wheels).
2. It had best be done at the level of the regional/national electric grid: your electricity can't be assigned to just your local power plants when they are on a larger grid with power flowing all over the place to meet demands - you need to uses the average CO2 per kWh of all the generators on the whole grid; equally you can't treat the whole US as one place as it doesn't have a true national grid - it has at least three major ones (West, Central and East) - so the average grid CO2 intensity has to be calculated for each grid area. So in the US this would mean three separate vehicle sticker emissions numbers for the three separate grid areas; in Europe a different CO2 emissions number for each of the 26 EU countries. Competition and single market regulators may take a dim view of this - but the alternative of pretending that there is a US-wide or EU-wide single average emissions number that is physically meaningful should be resisted.
3. In calculating the upstream emissions for the EVs, attention should be paid to the time of day that EVs are charged. In general EVs charge at night. Hour-by-hour statistics for the UK national grid indicate that carbon intensity are typically 1/3 lower at night. So let's be sure that the upstream emissions are calculated with a weighting to a fair view of when the bulk of vehicles charge.
4. Given that most regulators allow electricity companies to sell "green" electricity that is sourced from wind, solar, etc, there should be provision on any EV sticker to state "zero emissions if powered by a green tariff electricity supply (or your own zero carbon generation)."
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tdelta1000
Active Member
It sounds like the Empire "Oil and Gas manufactures" is striking back. How could they impose such stupid regulation on EV vehicles?
In 2009 alone USA oil refineries purchased 43,019 million Kilowatthours of
electricity! That one year alone would be enough to power two years of production of every new car in the US if they were electric.
The refineries in California are the largest user of electricity next to the State.
There also has to be an accounting of the (extra dirty) fuel burned in the Supertankers bringing oil from parts afar. One tanker burns a gallon of fuel every 44 feet! Just 16 of the hundreds of tankers create the pollution of all the worlds cars: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1229857/How-16-ships-create-pollution-cars-world.html
electricity! That one year alone would be enough to power two years of production of every new car in the US if they were electric.
The refineries in California are the largest user of electricity next to the State.
There also has to be an accounting of the (extra dirty) fuel burned in the Supertankers bringing oil from parts afar. One tanker burns a gallon of fuel every 44 feet! Just 16 of the hundreds of tankers create the pollution of all the worlds cars: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1229857/How-16-ships-create-pollution-cars-world.html
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