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Tesla and Maxwell Technologies?

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Hey guys,
Just wondering if Tesla builds its own capacitors in house for the Model S or does it buy them in? I assume some capacitors must be used in such a large electronic device?
Maxwell is based in California and seems to be a leader in capacitor technology.
Also named after a brilliant scientist. Would be cool to see Tesla and Maxwell working together (or maybe a buy out by Tesla?)
Anyone think Maxwell might have a supplier roll to play at the Gigafactory?

MXWL shares at a 52 week low currently. Maybe worth a stab?

I know Musk has said publicly that he feels capacitors will eventually replace batteries.
I have also seen that some of Tesla's patents call for a capacitor/battery hybrid system being used.

Obviously this is further down the road but a Maxwell acquisition now could keep Tesla at the forefront of capacitor technology and experimentation while continuing to focus on batteries in the short/medium term.

From the Maxwell website it is clear that capacitors have a roll to play in the EV industry, stationary storage, solar, and space businesses as well so maybe picking up Maxwell on the cheap now could be a good move for Tesla, SolarCity, and SpaceX?

Maxwell Technologies Ultracapacitors, Supercapacitors, Microelectronics and High Voltage


Keen to hear your thoughts.

Cheers,
Ted
 
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Trying to cause a stock run-up by creating a Tesla buzz again?

(Last year):
Maxwell soars amid Tesla-related buzz - Maxwell Technologies, Inc. (NASDAQ:MXWL) | Seeking Alpha

No I don't own any shares of Maxwell as of yet and wasn't aware of any Tesla-Maxwell rumours in the past.

I was just wondering if anybody on the board here knew if Tesla builds their own capacitors in house or does actually source them from somewhere?

Maxwell would seem like a good acquisition for all the above reasons I listed.
1. California based with offices around the world.
2. Long history in the auto, renewable energy, and space industries.

Just seems like a pretty good fit no?

Elon could get controlling interest for around $85 million at current stock price.
His involvement would attract the best and brightest into capacitor research which may eventually be the long term answer to cheap and abundant energy storage. Elon himself was studying advanced capacitors at Stanford before he dropped out to form Zip2 and PayPal.

Again it all seems to add up to me.

Genuinely looking for some feedback here guys. I'm not a stock pusher.

Thanks - Ted
 
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Anyone know the status othe Maxwell merger & why it has been going down the last few days?
Basically only about 10% of the Maxwell investors tendered their shares (I did!), so they extended the deadline and are doing a second mailout to existing shareholders. I am not sure of the regulatory necessities, but I think if they don't get a significant proportion of the shareholders to tender, the takeover will fail. Hence the drop in Maxwell stock price back toward pre-tender levels.
 
Basically only about 10% of the Maxwell investors tendered their shares (I did!), so they extended the deadline and are doing a second mailout to existing shareholders. I am not sure of the regulatory necessities, but I think if they don't get a significant proportion of the shareholders to tender, the takeover will fail. Hence the drop in Maxwell stock price back toward pre-tender levels.
Thank you for the explaination.
 
No I don't own any shares of Maxwell as of yet and wasn't aware of any Tesla-Maxwell rumours in the past.

I was just wondering if anybody on the board here knew if Tesla builds their own capacitors in house or does actually source them from somewhere?

Maxwell would seem like a good acquisition for all the above reasons I listed.
1. California based with offices around the world.
2. Long history in the auto, renewable energy, and space industries.

Just seems like a pretty good fit no?

Elon could get controlling interest for around $85 million at current stock price.
His involvement would attract the best and brightest into capacitor research which may eventually be the long term answer to cheap and abundant energy storage. Elon himself was studying advanced capacitors at Stanford before he dropped out to form Zip2 and PayPal.

Again it all seems to add up to me.

Genuinely looking for some feedback here guys. I'm not a stock pusher.

Thanks - Ted

Impressive nice prediction come true.
 
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Tesla may be able to charge faster with more cell safety with a larger capacitor in the circuit. There seems to be several interesting IP areas at Maxwell, as well as talent that Tesla could use.

Tesla is so good at many aspects of electrical engineering that if they want Maxwell I assume it is something special.
 
Tesla may be able to charge faster with more cell safety with a larger capacitor in the circuit. There seems to be several interesting IP areas at Maxwell, as well as talent that Tesla could use.

Tesla is so good at many aspects of electrical engineering that if they want Maxwell I assume it is something special.
There are uses for SuperCaps, but Tesla isn't any of them. It just overly complicates the electronics paths and weighs too much for any benefit. Once inside Tesla, it will be interesting to see if the SuperCap part of Maxwell is allowed to continue or not. My guess is not, because it has never been profitable.
 
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Agreed. Every battery improvement to date comes with trade offs. You can sacrifice charge rates for density or cycle life or any combo. You usually must give up something to get something. That extends to manufacturability as well, goodenough already invented the nearly perfect solid state battery that actually gains capacity for the first year or so and cycles 5k times, charges fast and has no flammable liquids. The problem then? How to make a sandwich of glass without cracking the glass.

To me Maxwell is a stepping stone to solid-state that is highly manufacturable. It adds density, cycle rates and the more stable materials allows for higher charge rates and less cooling. It's solid-state light. Only Tesla has the scale and demand to move this from the labs to cars in a hurry. Jeff Dahn can do accelerated testing and Cassie
Validate the cells, Ghromann and Perbix can build the machines to automate the process. The best part to me is that the material is compatible with the current manufacturing process, past the ovens. So it replaces everything up to the ovens and works with everything past that point while saving massive capex and space on future Gigafactories. The current ovens are about a city block long and 3 stories tall and require massive amounts of energy to cook and recycle the solvents used today.

My guess is that once the deal closes, Tesla can have these machines in place and contributing in months, not years. My thought is that it's required to hit the densities and cycle rates needed for the semi. People assume some type of NMC 811 would be required for 5k cycles but the energy density is too low and the batteries would be too heavy, thus the physics jokes by Daimler. Maxwell would allow a zero Cobalt NCA battery.. haha.. NNoCA battery that can cycle 2500+ times with 300+wh/kg of density. BTW, 2500 cycles times 400 miles per cycle is a million miles. At 800KWh and .5m/KWh fully loaded should be possible. Enough buffer to allow for degradation and weather conditions, assume a pretty good sized buffer, maybe 10% on the top 4% on the bottom, so 912KWh pack with 800 usable, more in bad weather, that's less than 7000lbs for the batteries. Curb weight of your average semi is 17,000lbs (25% is drive train) so Tesla would have to get creative with weight given the weight of the batteries. The smaller pack would be very close to parity but only 300mi range. My point is the Maxwell deal answers a lot of questions. Assume it's required for the semi and assume cells are being tested in the semi now.
 
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In addition to a potentially easier and cheaper manufacturing process, I think a key benefit of Maxwell's technology is that the improved properties of their dry coated electrodes allow for new cathode and anode chemistries (with higher energy densities) which do not function adequately with electrodes manufactured using the traditional methods. I would guess the first generation of Maxwell electrodes would use Tesla's current cathode chemistry but a new anode chemistry, but it also sounds like they expect their dry electrodes to open up options for new cathode chemistries including cobalt free according to their ppt. Whether dry coated electrodes also have properties which will make solid state battery designs easier to commercialise i don't know - i don't see any reference to solid state in their materials other than the 2 words on their ppt.

From Maxwell's papers:
  • "results suggest that dry coated electrodes exhibit lower particle-to-particle contact resistance and charge transfer impedance, likely due to a uniform network of interconnects between binder and active material particles."
  • "The lower charge transfer and contact resistance in the dry coated electrode offer higher energy density cell designs with improved power capability."
  • "Maxwell’s dry coated battery electrode offers extraordinary benefits, including manufacturing cost reduction, elimination of solvent toxicity, enabling the application of liquid sensitive battery chemistries and enhancing cell performance, particularly at high loading weights when compared to conventional wet coated electrode in discharge rate studies."
  • "In addition to manufacturing flexibility, the cohesion and adhesion properties of electrodes derived from the dry process are superior in the presence of electrolyte at high temperatures compared to those produced using the wet coating technology."
  • "Maxwell’s DBE offers significantly high loading and produces a thick electrode that allows for high energy density cells without compromising physical properties and electrochemical performance"
  • "As a solvent-free process, the polymer binder is not dissolved; as a result, the binding mechanism is an inter-connecting network comprised of point-contacts with the active material particle surface. This dry binding structure is less obtrusive and, consequently, enables lithium ions better access to the active material particles. This feature is especially advantageous for high rate performance in high energy density electrodes."
  • "Various dry coated battery electrodes were fabricated, including NMC811, NCA, LFP, LTO, sulfur/carbon and silicon composite, using Maxwell’s dry coating electrode technology. Maxwell’s dry coating electrode technology can be used to produce advanced high capacity NMC811 cathode and silicon-graphite composite anode that can deliver designed discharge capacity."
From ppt: "Technology Enablement & Environmentally Responsible: No Solvents, Next Gen Materials, Cobalt-Free, Solid State "

It looks like Maxwell has another paper due out shortly with results from their pilot production plant:
Dry Processed Nickel-Rich Layered Transition Metal Oxide Cathode Electrode
  • "The benefits are lower CO2 emission, lower capex and opex cost, improved energy density and the ability to process moisture sensitive or reactive materials. "
  • "This paper will report the physical properties of nickel-rich layered dry cathode film produced at the lab and pilot production level and their electrochemical performance with coating loading of 30-40mg/cm2 per coating side, which is significantly heavier than a typical wet cast electrode in the range of 20-24mg/cm2per coating side in commercial high energy 18650 cell."
 
To be more clear, my guess is that the number one and quickest benefit of Maxwell’s technology is to allow for a thicker cathode layer and hence a higher active materials volume ratio and higher cell energy densities even with existing cathode chemistry.

The cathode energy density is generally the limiting factor in cell energy density so obviously increasing the % of cathode material in a cell is the easiest way to increase cell energy density. In fact I understand this has been the key driver of battery cell improvements over the past 20 years – “The gradual improvement in energy density over the last 20 to 25 years was mostly due to cell engineering, which has increased the volume ratio of active materials from ~20% in early Li-ion cells to ~45% in today’s state-of-art cells [7,8]. Thickening electrodes in cell stacks while making current collectors and separators thinner is one effective approach to continuously increasing the active material content for higher energy density and lowcost Li-ion batteries.” Understanding limiting factors in thick electrode performance as applied to high energy density Li-ion batteries (Journal Article) | OSTI.GOV

The problem with this simple approach is increasing cathode thickness beyond a certain amount can lead to underutilisation of the cathode materials and also lower power density. So you get diminishing returns and counterproductive effects after a certain thickness.

I think this is why the focus shifted to solid state batteries – lithium metal anodes have a much higher energy density so they allow for much thinner anode and hence a higher % of cathode in the overall cell (solid state can theoretically have other potential benefits like faster charge time, increased cycles, less flammable etc). The solid state electrolyte is mainly just there as requirement to safely manufacture lithium metal anodes.

It looks like Maxwell is increasing cathode thickness c.50% within the current 18650 cell design. So they must be reducing thickness of the electrolyte, anode or separators etc a corresponding amount (anode thickness reduction would require a new anode chemistry with higher energy density). If they manage to fully utilize the full thickness of this cathode material without adverse impact to power density, safety, cycle life etc, they should get a significant increase in cell energy density without changing the cathode chemistry while remaining viable for quick deployment in EVs.

I think Tesla’s battery breakthrough approach may end up looking very much like their Camera vs Lidar approach for Autonomy. Everyone else spends 5 years trying to bring Lidar costs down from $100k to $10k while Tesla gets further just using cameras which were $100 all along. Everyone else spends 5-10 years trying to commercialise new solid state battery designs while Tesla specs beat solid state just from iterating the current technology.

Also, I'm not a battery cell expert, i've only followed the tech for a while and read a bunch of papers, so someone correct me if any of this is wrong.
 
Citation: Amendment No. 8

At 11:59 p.m., Eastern Time, on May 15, 2019, the Offer expired as scheduled and was not extended. The Offeror was advised by the depositary and exchange agent for the Offer that as of the expiration of the Offer, a total of approximately 36,764,342 shares of Maxwell Common Stock were validly tendered and not validly withdrawn in the Offer, representing approximately 79% of the aggregate voting power of the Maxwell shares outstanding immediately after the consummation of the Offer. The number of shares of Maxwell Common Stock validly tendered and not validly withdrawn in the Offer satisfied the minimum tender condition (as defined in the Prospectus/Offer to Exchange). All conditions to the Offer having been satisfied, all shares of Maxwell Common Stock that were validly tendered and not validly withdrawn have been accepted by Tesla for payment in accordance with the terms of the Offer.

Following the completion of the Offer, on May 16, 2019, Tesla completed the acquisition of Maxwell through a second-step merger of a wholly-owned subsidiary of Tesla with and into Maxwell, in accordance with Section 251(h) of the General Corporation Law of the State of Delaware (the “Merger”).

Following the Merger, all shares of Maxwell Common Stock ceased trading prior to the opening of the Nasdaq Global Market (“Nasdaq”) on May 16, 2019 and will be delisted from Nasdaq and deregistered under the Securities and Exchange Act of 1934, as amended.

On May 16, 2019, Tesla issued a press release announcing the expiration and results of the Offer and the consummation of the Merger. A copy of the press release is attached as Exhibit (a)(5)(Q) hereto and incorporated by reference herein.”

And here's the press release: Tesla Completes Acquisition of Maxwell Technologies | Tesla, Inc.
 
Tesla may be able to charge faster with more cell safety with a larger capacitor in the circuit. There seems to be several interesting IP areas at Maxwell, as well as talent that Tesla could use.

Tesla is so good at many aspects of electrical engineering that if they want Maxwell I assume it is something special.

To add 1 kWh of ultra capacitor, you’d have to remove 30 kWh of batteries for an equivalent weight and cost. You gain power for very short term acceleration and hard braking events at the expense of a lot of range, slower charging and more cycles (wear and tear) because of fewer batteries.

Yes you could charge that 1 kWh of ultra-capacitor super quick, but then you have to wait for it to transfer to the battery, so you haven’t gained any speed other than in charging that very 1st kWh.
 
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The Tesla/Maxwell merger closed exactly on schedule, as predicted by Tesla management on Apr 24, 2019:

Tesla, Inc. (TSLA) Q1 2019 Earnings Call Transcript - from the Motley Fool

Questions and Answers:

Martin Viecha -- Senior Director of Investor Relations

Thank you very much, Zachary. Let's take some first questions from retail shareholders who have been submitting their questions on say.com. The first question is, will Tesla be able to complete their purchase of Maxwell Technologies? What is holding that back?

Elon R. Musk -- Chief Executive Officer

Jonathan, do you want to...

Jonathan Chang -- General Counsel

Yeah. Hi, it's Jonathan Chang, General Counsel here. Right now, it is going through approvals with the SEC. There is not a whole lot of things holding it back. We're on schedule, we're on track. Right now we're looking to close in mid-May.

Elon R. Musk -- Chief Executive Officer

Great. Thanks.​
 
To add 1 kWh of ultra capacitor, you’d have to remove 30 kWh of batteries for an equivalent weight and cost. You gain power for very short term acceleration and hard braking events at the expense of a lot of range, slower charging and more cycles (wear and tear) because of fewer batteries.

Yes you could charge that 1 kWh of ultra-capacitor super quick, but then you have to wait for it to transfer to the battery, so you haven’t gained any speed other than in charging that very 1st kWh.
To play devil's advocate how much capacity would you need to power the first moment of launch? IOW could it make sense in something like the roadster to have a small capacitor to dump at launch. If I understand things correctly, the power requirement at low RPM is pretty high so a capacitor with enough capacity to boost the launch could have its place in something like the roadster where you could spare a few kWh of battery.

I guess put another way, sure you get better overall performance by using a larger battery pack where the increase in size permits faster charging and discharging as well as improved longevity through better distribution. But is there a point where the pack size gets large enough that the incremental improvement of a small delta in battery size would actually be less than apportioning that small amount for launch mode.