So when do you stop loving your car and ignoring the small (and not so small) issues?

dirkhh · May 8, 2015

So wk057 brought this up in the Firmware 6.2 thread, but I think it deserves its own topic.
Tesla by and large has an enthusiastic and loyal customer base.
So how much going wrong are people willing to accept and continue to love their car and be walking / driving advertizers and sales people for Tesla.
People complain about not getting lane holding by a certain point in time (this has been in the AP advertizing since AP was introduced more than half a year ago).
People complain about the mega lame user experience (and, frankly, accuracy) of the blind spot detection.
People complain about paying for next gen seats in December and not getting them until six months later.
People complain about the initially way higher than advertized energy consumption.
Or let's take my case:
Completely f-ed up delivery experience, multiple rounds of paper work, two unnecessary trips to the SC. Check.
Incorrect registration with the Oregon DMV which means that two months into owning my car I still don't have an official registration or license plates and received threatening letters from the Oregon DMV. Check.
Rock chip in the car at delivery. Check.
Non-functional TACC at delivery that did a hard open road stop with no car in front of me (thankfully not leading to be rear ended as no one happened to be behind me, either). Check.
Driver door doesn't close unless it is adjusted in a way that creates about a 5mm gap to the back door with the driver door sticking out (Daewoo and Yugo have better fit and finish than that). Check.
Loud clicking noise in the driver seat at every bump in the road (this is Oregon, our roads are made of "bump"). After a "successful" repair we are down to an occasional clicking noise from the seat. Check.
Front motor loud and obnoxious whine, latest news from the SC is that I will get a front motor replacement soon (but they don't have it in stock). Check

Still love my car. I believe that's called Stockholm Syndrome

eloder · May 8, 2015

As with any product or service, you have to take it as a whole. While I don't own a Tesla, I imagine the experience is many, many times better than dealing with ICE dealers who squeezed an EV into their inventory, from a manufacturer that plopped a battery and motor on an ICE car and called it a proper vehicle.

Cyclone · May 8, 2015

I would imagine that whatever time consensus you get now will shorten when the 3 comes out. "Mainstream" buyers will have a much lower tolerance than us Kool-Aid drinkers!

SabrToothSqrl · May 8, 2015

I'm too busy using [all the torques] to destroy as many tires as I can, to care! Best $ I've spent on a car. Ever.

Barry · May 8, 2015

My 12V just gave a "weak" warning, in a one month old 85D with 900 miles on it. I'll start a new thread about it in the Battery subsection.

mknox · May 8, 2015

Cyclone said:
I would imagine that whatever time consensus you get now will shorten when the 3 comes out. "Mainstream" buyers will have a much lower tolerance than us Kool-Aid drinkers!

I think that's very true. I've been an avid booster of EVs in general and Tesla in specific because I believe in the overall objective and admire Elon Musk's passion and vision. Having said that, I've had more issues, small and large, with my Model S than probably every prior vehicle I've ever owned. I was an early adopter, and Tesla has done nothing but treat me like a king when it comes to servicing, but honestly, I had really good dealer experiences with my last few ICE cars too. For instance, my last car only had one problem in 4 years (a burned out DRL bulb that was not user-serviceable) but it did need oil changes and such. As it turns out, those services were always provided to me at no charge, and the dealer would pick up and drop off the car washed and cleaned every time. I think the quality issues are way better than they were 2+ years ago, and hopefully will be even better when the Model 3 rolls out.

skilly · May 8, 2015

I think the reference to the 3 and its mainstream requirements are sobering and correct. My experience on this forum is that there is a mixture of folks drunk on the koolaid and those that voice concern; some even show contempt...ultimately though while the site receives a mixture of feedback, the general theme here (which makes sense given the venue being an enthusiast's site) is "just give TM a break".

All that said, as a new buyer but someone who has experience purchasing other high end cars, TMs approach is unique, but the product is largely good. ICE vs EV aside, I think that the fit and finish is comparable and while it isn't without its faults, my equivalent ICE purchases have had their own challenges not dissimilar to the those seen with this brand.

When you take into consideration that their entire platform is new vs other luxury brands having decades to get it right, I'm inclined to give TM a bit of a break as well. I wouldnt let them off the hook or be as patient as many others here have...and in that, I wouldnt call myself the traditional early adopter. There is a second wave of buyers that I believe I am a part of...those that watched and waited and have now purchased. We are willing to tollerate some growing pains; however, our expectations of the brand and its quality in the market are much less forgiving than the buyers who got TM where it is today.

Cyclone · May 8, 2015

To further along as others are saying, the TM approach and overall goal are amazing. The finer details can use some smoothing over. For instance, my Toyota 4Runner has had problems to be fixed only once, about a month after I bought it. They painlessly replaced the stereo b/c of a problem with the screen. That said, the regular maintenance is something to deal with and while annoying, hasn't been onerous. Our Lexus IS has had only one warranty fix (the battery died after a year), but the servicing is something to deal with. At least here, they provided a loaner, washed the car, etc. But with the price we paid for service, we essentially could have paid someone to do all that for us and rent a loaner from Toyota. My VW Eos was a nightmare. I hated everything about working with the dealer on it and ignoring oil changes (regular maintenance), it went in for service no less than 10 times in 18 months of ownership. I quickly got rid of that thing as I had to keep getting it fixed.

Tesla as a vehicle needing warranty service is worse than my Toyota, but better than my VW. Tesla's experience when getting service is above even our Lexus dealer. But treating me right when there is a problem only buys so much goodwill when things keep going wrong. Add to that delays such as Autopilot rollout, and I can some people being particularly annoyed.

In the end, it didn't stop me from buying a Tesla though!

mibaro2 · May 8, 2015

I look at the model S at being on the cutting edge of technology. Otherwise known as the bleeding edge.
For those in I.T. , we are all familiar with brand new OS problems and how it is a love/hate relationship. (Yes, I was one of those early Win NT adopters who woke up every morning to a BSOD ). So from this viewpoint, my tolerance is pretty high.
I expect Tesla to have problems.

When I start getting stranded often calling for towtrucks...that would probably do it. I can't quantify "often" yet.

ChadS · May 8, 2015

That is a valid question, and I'd like to try to answer as an owner that's had one for longer.

However, the main problem to providing a helpful answer is that I haven't had ANY of the problems you listed. That is largely to be expected as many of them are newer features that Tesla is offering now. There were analogous problems with the early cars: door handle failures, stress-cracked windshields, leaks and noises from the pano roof, poor defrost vents, really noisy AC. Many early cars had these, and yeah it's a bummer because that's more problems than I've had with most cars.

But Tesla came to my house, dropped off a loaner, fixed the problems...and I'm not having new ones. Love the car, not getting tired of it, not getting tired of issues because I'm not having them anymore. Obviously some cars have more problems than others, and there may (?) be a different character to the newer problems. But for me, it's not an issue. I hope these new issues can similarly be resolved quickly and easily and are followed by a long period of trouble-free operation.

Incidentally, that's only considering the Model S we got in 2012. I also got a Roadster in 2009 that's had fewer problems than the Model S. It too has issues, though more related to the type of car it is: noisy, rough ride, scant storage, poor visibility, difficult ingress/egress. Still worth it!

Teslas are definitely not perfect (that is true for all cars, of course). But despite the issues, I can't think of anything else I'd rather be driving.

Gizmotoy · May 8, 2015

I have a love/dislike relationship with mine ("hate" is too strong). Easily an amazing car, but various things simply don't work or break. Example: 18 months in and my parking sensors still refuse to work after 3 or 4 service visits (I've lost count). It's a little over three days away from spending more time in the shop than every previous car I've owned, combined. While experiences with the SC are absolutely fantastic, the repeated issues do detract from the experience. While they have worn away the shimmer, at least what I'm left with is still a great car.

skilly · May 8, 2015

Gizmotoy said:
I have a love/dislike relationship with mine ("hate" is too strong). Easily an amazing car, but various things simply don't work or break. Example: 18 months in and my parking sensors still refuse to work after 3 or 4 service visits (I've lost count). It's a little over three days away from spending more time in the shop than every previous car I've owned, combined. While experiences with the SC are absolutely fantastic, the repeated issues do detract from the experience. While they have worn away the shimmer, at least what I'm left with is still a great car.

In California, we have the lemon law that protects us from stuff like that. If youre into more than 30 days of service, you can force the issue to have the car replaced. There is a mileage hit but you have a recourse.

trils0n · May 8, 2015

I had a flawless ordering and delivery experience. Smooth as could be.

Service has been really easy and high quality, but much too frequent. Also, wait times for service are really long, 1-2 months, and there are never any loaners.

Squeaks and rattles, problems with pano roof, 2 drive unit replacements (never had a problem with function. didn't request replacement, Tesla just did it). Car won't stay aligned for more than 4-5k miles. The temporary nature of all the fixes it what irks me. Every problem I have has been addressed multiple times. Always returns. None of the problems I've had have been serious, just annoying.

I don't know if this is just a symptom of owning an early vehicle, or if Tesla needs to make improvements in the quality of the vehicle, so the service centers aren't so swamped fixing things. If that means re-engineering parts, they should do it. If it means better quality assembly, they should work on that.

Still love the car though. I imagine if problems progress from annoying to functional issues, then I might not love it so much.

Gizmotoy · May 8, 2015

skilly said:
In California, we have the lemon law that protects us from stuff like that. If youre into more than 30 days of service, you can force the issue to have the car replaced. There is a mileage hit but you have a recourse.

Definitely nowhere near that long, and save the motor/inverter swap, mostly for minor stuff. I suppose it's partially skewed by having selected what turned out to be fantastically-reliable cars up to this point.

trils0n said:
Squeaks and rattles, problems with pano roof, 2 drive unit replacements (never had a problem with function. didn't request replacement, Tesla just did it). Car won't stay aligned for more than 4-5k miles. The temporary nature of all the fixes it what irks me. Every problem I have has been addressed multiple times. Always returns. None of the problems I've had have been serious, just annoying.

This is pretty much exactly my thought. I have repeated issues with stuff that's minor enough I feel guilty complaining about it, but that nonetheless annoy the crap out of me.

strider · May 8, 2015

mibaro2 said:
When I start getting stranded often calling for towtrucks...that would probably do it. I can't quantify "often" yet.

That is the key for me. How often the car leaves you stranded. For us it's been once, but we have a very early car. We've had to take it in for other things, stress crack in the windshield, Gen 1 door handles replaced, etc. but those were all done on our schedule and Tesla always provided a loaner and their SC locations are convenient for us so it's no big deal.

But the bottom line is that there is no alternative in the marketplace today. The driving experience is so far beyond ICE's (all of them) that we don't have a choice but to put up w/ Tesla's antics.

Max* · May 8, 2015

I studied up on the forums about... all the potential issues people were having. Weighed my options -- can I live with the issues and own a Tesla, or are the issues going to bother me and I'll get something else?

I ordered a Tesla..

morbot · May 8, 2015

While everyone's experiences are going to vary, and some people it seems have had worse luck than others with certain items I think the important thing is to look how Tesla is handling issues.

Most stories I hear are about fantastic service. About Tesla stepping up, trying their best, etc. While I would be frustrated as well if I had a high volume of issue (thankfully I do not), you have to appreciate that they take accountability.

I'd prefer having small issues & Tesla stepping up to trying to fix it rather than having big issues and some ICE manufacturer denying responsibility and dragging things out.

ChadS · May 8, 2015

...when the 3 comes out. "Mainstream" buyers will have a much lower tolerance than us Kool-Aid drinkers!

I think this is partly true, but incomplete. It hinges on the competition.

If GM, BMW, Nissan and perhaps others have high-quality BEVs with at least 200 miles of range by the time the Model 3 comes out (and presumably some sort of DC charging solution), it could indeed be that mainstream Model 3 buyers will not put up with Tesla quirks to drive a Model 3.

But if none of those cars are out, or they are not compelling, or are only available in limited quantities, I think we will be in the same situation we are in today. Even if the Model 3 has issues, if it is the only car in its price class with 200+ miles of range and all the great driving features that go with that type of EV, I think many consumers will put up with it rather than go back to an ICE for the same reasons so few Model S owners go back to an ICE.

There are problems with every car company, and the ICE driving experience just doesn't compare. (For most personal driving, anyway. A gas car is still better if you drive on the track, or spend hours at top speed on the autobahn, or drive a semi, or hate flying but sometimes need to get across country in as little time as possible and are willing to stay dehydrated for most of the trip).

Kipernicus · May 8, 2015

dirkhh, it seems to me all the things listed in your post are about the new car. How did you feel about the 60?

dirkhh · May 8, 2015

Kipernicus said:
dirkhh, it seems to me all the things listed in your post are about the new car. How did you feel about the 60?

Yes indeed, those were all the things that happened with my new P85D in the first two months of ownership.
I love the P85D, I loved the 60 (which is why I upgraded, right?).
The 60 had its drive unit replaced, had three replacements of the 12V battery, and had some serious creaking and rattling noises... it was an 11k VIN - others with lower VINs had fewer problems with noises, but we had a thread about this quite a while ago and the consensus was that the bad roads around here play a major role in this. It went dead on me once (would not turn on at all) but thankfully Tesla was able to revive it remotely.

- - - Updated - - -

ChadS said:
I think this is partly true, but incomplete. It hinges on the competition.

If GM, BMW, Nissan and perhaps others have high-quality BEVs with at least 200 miles of range by the time the Model 3 comes out (and presumably some sort of DC charging solution), it could indeed be that mainstream Model 3 buyers will not put up with Tesla quirks to drive a Model 3.

But if none of those cars are out, or they are not compelling, or are only available in limited quantities, I think we will be in the same situation we are in today. Even if the Model 3 has issues, if it is the only car in its price class with 200+ miles of range and all the great driving features that go with that type of EV, I think many consumers will put up with it rather than go back to an ICE for the same reasons so few Model S owners go back to an ICE.

There are problems with every car company, and the ICE driving experience just doesn't compare. (For most personal driving, anyway. A gas car is still better if you drive on the track, or spend hours at top speed on the autobahn, or drive a semi, or hate flying but sometimes need to get across country in as little time as possible and are willing to stay dehydrated for most of the trip).

I think that's a very interesting point. Right now there is no other car in this class. Period. If the Model 3 is in a class by its own it might also get more tolerance from its buyers. Still, with higher volume I assume we'll get more buyers who will cut Tesla less of a break.
The other interesting point made upthread was the service experience. I'll have to say that "exceptional" doesn't come close to describing it. If Tesla can maintain that into the volumes the Model 3 will ship at, that would be incredible.

So when do you stop loving your car and ignoring the small (and not so small) issues?

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