Does the 70D have new batteries and will the 85D become a 100D?

S85 battery is known (from having been dismantled for salvage) to be configured as

16 modules each containing 6 banks of 74 cells = 7104 cells, which at [email protected] = 86.9kWh

S60 battery is theorised to be

14 modules each containing 6 banks of 60 cells = 5040 cells, which at [email protected] = 61.7kWh

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A really obvious reconfiguration would be to include 16 of the S60 modules in a pack which would be 70.5kWh.

This would also mean that the S70D has the same pack voltage as an 85.

70D implications for the P85D

Starting speculation on the affects of the 70D on the P85D.

Assuming that the battery gets increased to 100kWh and based on the differences between the 60 and the 70 I think we could see the following changes in 2016. Elon has stated that we will see no more changes in the Model S this year. However he said that BEFORE the 70D was announced so these may in store sooner than 2016. Also the difference between a 70kWh and an 85 does not really justify the extra size anymore.

Model S P100D

Range 302 miles, 0-60 in 2.8 seconds and keep the top speed of 155 :love:

P100D? I'm down with that! :biggrin: Then we can truly hang with super cars...

P1004WD

A motor for each wheel meaning better cornering.

Weight might be a good indicator but it doesn't look like Tesla breaks it down to that level of detail.

1208 said:

P1004WD

A motor for each wheel meaning better cornering.

Click to expand...

That would be P110Q (quad)

1208 said:

P1004WD

A motor for each wheel meaning better cornering.

Click to expand...

How exactly, is that advantageous? Would the torque be varied between left and right in cornering? How does that help?

I'd have thought that, if the motors are outboard, they would add to unsprung weight. If they are inboard, they have to fit within a narrow space. In either case they seem to increase complexity quite a bit. Maybe it's worth it?

Hate to be a party pooper... but likely curb your enthusiasm. How they got from 60 to 70 kWh was by putting in cells where there was earlier just ballast in the 60 pack. Probably no new chemistry. The 85 pack is already full.

Johan said:

Hate to be a party pooper... but likely curb your enthusiasm. How they got from 60 to 70 kWh was by putting in cells where there was earlier just ballast in the 60 pack. Probably no new chemistry. The 85 pack is already full.

Click to expand...

Agreed. Going beyond 85kWh means a new type of cell, or a larger pack. Neither is going to happen in the near future.

Pure speculation:
1.the 70kwh is going to be the home power supply preferred unit. Higher economies of scale.
2. Or perhaps the 70kwh perhaps is the 85 software limited? Assuming the 85 packs achieved a cost that still allows for substantial margin with expected 70D sales volume....
Less configuration, higher production volume and less switching cost. I would speculate next to go is the RWD config....

ThosEM said:

How exactly, is that advantageous? Would the torque be varied between left and right in cornering? How does that help?

I'd have thought that, if the motors are outboard, they would add to unsprung weight. If they are inboard, they have to fit within a narrow space. In either case they seem to increase complexity quite a bit. Maybe it's worth it?

Click to expand...

You'd mount them inboard and off axis, just like the current Model S drive motors - instead of a differential in the center, you'd have two transmissions back to back. Twice as many gears, but they can be half the width, and you do eliminate the differential.

The benefits are substantial - in addition to maximizing every bit of grip for both acceleration and braking (ultimate AWD) and the redundancy to get you home if something breaks, it opens the door to active handling - where they can program exactly how much understeer or oversteer the platform should produce.

Honda is one of the leaders in active handling - the RLX hybrid has a motor on each rear wheel in addition to the ICE and motor on the front wheels. Here's a review with video of the power delivery it is producing as the car accelerates and decelerates around turns - Autoblog said that they felt it greatly improved the sporting feel of the car:

2014 Acura RLX Sport Hybrid [w/video]

Not that they would, but in-wheel motors, whether the Michelin system or the Protean would add unsprung weight, but you could have complete torque control at any speed, under any circumstances.

Bulletproof said:

Not that they would, but in-wheel motors, whether the Michelin system or the Protean would add unsprung weight, but you could have complete torque control at any speed, under any circumstances.

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But you can get the benefits without the unsprung weight.

As demonstrated by the C-X75, SLS, and Rimac One, the obvious way to build an electric supercar is with frame mounted motors with reduction gearing driving individual wheels through conventional half-shafts.

mgboyes said:

S85 battery is known (from having been dismantled for salvage) to be configured as

16 modules each containing 6 banks of 74 cells = 7104 cells, which at [email protected] = 86.9kWh

S60 battery is theorised to be

14 modules each containing 6 banks of 60 cells = 5040 cells, which at [email protected] = 61.7kWh

----

A really obvious reconfiguration would be to include 16 of the S60 modules in a pack which would be 70.5kWh.

This would also mean that the S70D has the same pack voltage as an 85.

Click to expand...

Interesting. I was expecting the other obvious approach - 14 S85 modules = 76 kWh using your math, while eliminating the need to manufacture/stock S60 modules.
Walter

Johan said:

Hate to be a party pooper... but likely curb your enthusiasm. How they got from 60 to 70 kWh was by putting in cells where there was earlier just ballast in the 60 pack. Probably no new chemistry. The 85 pack is already full.

Click to expand...

I thought it was mentioned somewhere (by Elon, JB, or Panasonic) that there were continual increases of 3-5% in the batteries each year in terms of capacity. If that was the case it would make a capacity increase from 85 kWh possible.

notAmeenPerson said:

I thought it was mentioned somewhere (by Elon, JB, or Panasonic) that there were continual increases of 3-5% in the batteries each year in terms of capacity. If that was the case it would make a capacity increase from 85 kWh possible.

Click to expand...

Yes but in reality you'll see step changes let's say every 3 or 4 years where capacity increases, corresponding to an average improvement of 3-5% per year.

I'm not saying it's impossible that there's a new chemistry in the 70 kWh cars, Im just saying to me it's very unlikely and the explanation I suggested above (just filling up the pack more) is way more likely to be true. Occam's razor and all that...

Saghost said:

Interesting. I was expecting the other obvious approach - 14 S85 modules = 76 kWh using your math, while eliminating the need to manufacture/stock S60 modules.
Walter

Click to expand...

I like your logic better

Having the pack voltages of the 70D and 85 match could be an advantage with regards to motor and inverter control design etc.