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I don't think the customer was ever expected to participate in that. Those carbon credits go to the manufacturer who can use them as they like (e.g.: sell them if they can for a pure EV company.) I suppose anything they get from them gets rolled back into overall bottom line so could have an averaged out affect on the original vehicle price.
What comes into questions a bit more are (federal) tax credits and (state/city) rebates. If you lease for instance, who gets them? Also, when a manufacturer quotes a price for a car how do they state the credits and rebates? If they quote the price taking into account rebates and credits it could be misleading because not everyone is necessarily eligible to get the full benefit. I prefer if they show the actual price and make note of the fact that many customers are eligble for additional discounts. But sometimes they quote with incentives factored in.
Just now I went to the Nissan Leaf site and I see:
"...as low as $25,280 net, after tax savings.
MSRP $32,780, with federal tax savings from 0 to $7,500..."
If I go to http://www.teslamotors.com/models
and put the mouse on "Reserve" it pops up
"...From $49,000 with $5,000 deposit..."
then if you click through you see
"$5,000 REFUNDABLE RESERVATION
BASE PRICE: $49,000*
*Price includes $7,500 US Federal tax credit"
Based, on the above, I think the actual "base price" for Model S is $49000+$7500=$56,500 but many people will qualify for up to $7,500 in federal tax credits.
( I am assuming that the $5,000 RESERVATION amount gets applied to the purchase price, but it isn't totally clear... You aren't paying a reservation FEE separate from the car price are you? I assume it is a deposit not a fee... )
There may be additional discounts such as state or local rebates that they don't mention in the base price. So basically, the pricing can be a little fuzzy until you figure out what rebates and credits you are eligible to receive and any applicable roll-forward deposits you made previously.
What comes into questions a bit more are (federal) tax credits and (state/city) rebates. If you lease for instance, who gets them? Also, when a manufacturer quotes a price for a car how do they state the credits and rebates? If they quote the price taking into account rebates and credits it could be misleading because not everyone is necessarily eligible to get the full benefit. I prefer if they show the actual price and make note of the fact that many customers are eligble for additional discounts. But sometimes they quote with incentives factored in.
Just now I went to the Nissan Leaf site and I see:
"...as low as $25,280 net, after tax savings.
MSRP $32,780, with federal tax savings from 0 to $7,500..."
If I go to http://www.teslamotors.com/models
and put the mouse on "Reserve" it pops up
"...From $49,000 with $5,000 deposit..."
then if you click through you see
"$5,000 REFUNDABLE RESERVATION
BASE PRICE: $49,000*
*Price includes $7,500 US Federal tax credit"
Based, on the above, I think the actual "base price" for Model S is $49000+$7500=$56,500 but many people will qualify for up to $7,500 in federal tax credits.
( I am assuming that the $5,000 RESERVATION amount gets applied to the purchase price, but it isn't totally clear... You aren't paying a reservation FEE separate from the car price are you? I assume it is a deposit not a fee... )
There may be additional discounts such as state or local rebates that they don't mention in the base price. So basically, the pricing can be a little fuzzy until you figure out what rebates and credits you are eligible to receive and any applicable roll-forward deposits you made previously.
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ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
Jaff
Active Member
The rebate program works differently in Canada Chad...I've had Lexus hybrids for the last 5 years thus have received government rebate cheques...the only difference was that when you buy the vehicle outright, you've paid the entire sales due and will (eventually) receive your rebate...when you lease, you have to send the government a transcript copy of all of your payments paid to date (and the tax paid had to total up to at least the amount of the rebate) before they would send you your rebate check...it has worked this way for my last 3 vehicles...
The current $8,500 green credit available in Canada is not being referred to as a Carbon Credit but rather as an EV incentive...is it possible that these are two seperate animals?
The current $8,500 green credit available in Canada is not being referred to as a Carbon Credit but rather as an EV incentive...is it possible that these are two seperate animals?
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Actually, the $8500 rebate is an Ontario provincial government program, not federal. The rebate is indeed a refund after the sale is made; however, the seller can give you the discount immediately, apply for the rebate on your behalf, and then the government sends the refund to them.
In fact that is what happened when I purchased my Roadster. Tesla just knocked $8500 off the price, submitted the paperwork, and the government sent them a check.
Doug
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The CAFE credits (I'm assuming this is what you are talking about) always goes to the manufacturers. Similarly when companies fail to meet the CAFE standard, the company pays the fees, not the customers. However, the fees/credits may trickle down to the customer in the form of a more expensive or inexpensive car.
Jaff
Active Member
Thanks for the clarification Doug...this does make me wonder about the way Lexus has treated me then...I wonder why they did not give me the credit up front then they wait to recoup the rebate from the government? 
Thanks for the clarification Doug...this does make me wonder about the way Lexus has treated me then...I wonder why they did not give me the credit up front then they wait to recoup the rebate from the government?
You must be referring to the old program, which was discontinued on July 1. The rules may have been different. Currently, the only vehicle qualifying for the new rebate is the Roadster, as they only allow pure electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles.
Jaff
Active Member
You know, you're absolutely right...all three rebates were / will be subject to the old program! Doh!! :redface::smile:
jason.auch
Roadster Sport 2.5 #1071
Yeah, I wish it was a Canada wide credit. In oil rich Alberta you get a rebate of $0.
If you live in Alberta, write them and ask them to follow Ontario's lead... Preferably before my roadster gets here in the next week or so!
If you live in Alberta, write them and ask them to follow Ontario's lead... Preferably before my roadster gets here in the next week or so!
To me the current carbon credit system is all messed up, even though it's better than nothing. Carbon emissions for any product come in mainly two phases, those during production and those during consumption. I think manufacturers should get to sell their carbon credits only for the production phase and consumers should have the right to sell for the consumption phase.
For example, if Tesla produces all the cars using solar power, then they are free to sell whoever the carbon credits as a result. A Tesla driver gets to sell carbon credits based on the EV mileage (for avoided emission). This is more accurate in terms of actual carbon calculation and would be an incentive for people to buy EVs (especially if, in God's grace, carbon tax is levied on oil products), and an incentive for manufacturers to use green energy to produce products rather than claim carbon credits based on product consumption while still using fossil fuel for their production.
(In the same token, manufacturers should be carbon-taxed based on the emission during manufacturing and consumers carbon-taxed based on emission during consumption. In this way, it's fair to every one and consumers get incentive to move away from high emission products. God! Answer my prayer! Please let this happen! God!)
I'd be interested to know how they can calculate the amount of carbon credits if they don't know how many miles each driver drives. Don't tell me they use an average. That pretty much means throwing any number in the air. In a separate thread, an accident in Europe was accounted in which a new Roadster was totaled by crashing into a truck. Are they keeping track of things like this and reduce their total amount of available carbon credits accordingly? I kind of doubt it.
So the interesting issue is this, if Tesla sold carbon credits to Honda, I'm almost certain they sold carbon credits out of consumption (people driving EV without using gas) to cover Honda's emission out of production. (I'm sure Honda is not paying money to cover drivers' emission since it's not required by law.) That to me is just twisted.
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